Be honest, be yourself and success will follow

Speaker 1:                        This is ClientSide from Fox Agency.

Speaker 2:                        Hit it. That’s what I’m talking about. Wait.

Speaker 3:                        Okay now. From the beginning.

Nathan Anibaba:

Joanne White is the head of global marketing at Teacherly, a remote teaching platform based in London and Dubai. She is a results driven marketer with experience in brand marketing, she has led teams across private, public sector, charity and the agency sector as well. She spends her free time running, blogging and enjoying life in the fabulous Yorkshire countryside. Joanne White, welcome to ClientSide.

Joanne White:

Thank you. Thanks for the introduction. It’s good to be here.

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah, I’ve really been looking forward to speaking to you actually. After the pre-interview that we had last week, Natasha and I were really excited to dig into your background, and you’ve got an absolutely fascinating history and background and experience, so really looking forward to getting into it.  Sociology and psychology first got you interested in marketing, and then you got your degree from Aston University in 2001. What was it about the social sciences specifically that first attracted you to the industry?

Joanne White:

Yeah, so it’s very interesting when you learn about human behavior and how society affects how you behave, and then with psychology, the power of the mind and the things you can do to change your behavior. Then alongside doing that, I did business [inaudible] and English language, so it all went to the same thing. When I understood what marketing was and then I understood the impact of society and psychology, and then you start to think about language as well and how all that can be used either for commercial gain with marketing or to make a change to society. That’s what you do with marketing, you think about the person you’re trying to reach, you think about the life they live, their values, so it all links in and it’s just very interesting, that side of marketing I think [crosstalk].

Nathan Anibaba:

You did a business placement at Ford in 2000, where you went on to stay for four years, and you say that you learned a lot in those four years. You were only one of five people to actually get into the company from your placement that you did there. What did you learn there that you too on and replicated in the rest of your career?

Joanne White:

Yeah, well it was a fantastic opportunity. It was one of those business placements that everyone was after in university, and it was like oh no, I won’t go for that because I won’t get that job type of thing. It was just a case of oh, I’ll give it a go, and we went down there and lots of assessment centers, and yeah, it was amazing to be one of five. It gave me a lot of confidence going into there, in my ability, which is obviously a big key learning.

Then it was a very male-dominated environment back then, so it really helped me to understand how to get over yourself in front of people and not worry about being a petite, blonde, scouse woman in front of all these really important men when you have to present to them, and just be honest and be yourself and people respect that.

Then also, I saw a lot about the agency side because we worked with Ogilvy and a few other agencies, so I got to understand what happened there with working with agencies, working on client side, what that relationship is and whether that was somewhere I wanted to go for my career, because I was still thinking about being in the advertising industry. I learnt full end-to-end marketing as well as how to be a bit of a leader in a male-dominated industry really.

I [inaudible] pushed into the deep end. I went up to speak to the directors where you went up in their own elevator, to their special floor.

Nathan Anibaba:

Amazing.

Joanne White:

It was that kind of place, and all wood-cladded walls and you walk in a glass room and there’s all these men sitting at a table. It’s quite intimidating, but I just learnt to be myself and people came to respect that, which was nice. Which I think is important.

Nathan Anibaba:

It must have given you a lot of confidence being one of the five that were chosen from the placement. What do you think they saw in you at the time, that gave you that opportunity?

Joanne White:

It’s funny because I’m still friends with the five people that went in, and we laugh about it all the time because we didn’t know if it was the diverse mix that they took in because I was the one from the working class, northern background, then someone from another background. No, I’m only joking. Well what they told me, you got assessed on different elements of your personality and your skillset, and I wasn’t very good with maths, I wasn’t very good on the numerical side. Bit of a chip on my shoulder and I was very scared of maths and analytics, but they looked at the whole person, they looked at me and I thought I was very influential in front of them.

You have to, in these assessment centers, you have to think on your feet. You have to consume a lot of information quickly and then present it back in a very easy to understand way, so again, when you’ve been studying people and language, it’s a skill you pick up quite quickly. That’s what I think they liked. Then they put me in a very analytical role. They put me on, which I also got promoted in after a year.

Nathan Anibaba:

Oh wow.

Joanne White:

I’d learnt [crosstalk] and other horrible tools that you don’t like if you don’t like maths.

Nathan Anibaba:

Sure.

Joanne White:

So that was good. I did learn those skills.

Nathan Anibaba:

In 2004 you left Ford and then went to Save the Children, and you took, actually, a 50% pay cut because you wanted to do something a little bit more meaningful at that time in your career. But it wasn’t really what you expected, going to that company. Explain.

Joanne White:

Yeah, so I went traveling a bit round Thailand for a few weeks, and it’s the first time I’d ever stepped out of Europe. I saw real life and I saw real happiness from people who didn’t have a lot, and it made me reflect a lot on what I was doing with my career. That’s why I came back and thought do you know? I’m going to do something for good.

I went in with these really high expectations. Save the Children, a fantastic charity that’s done amazing work, and I went in, in the corporate team to go out into the regions and get corporate sponsorship, but what I found is there’s a lot of politics, a lot of bureaucracy, a lot of red tape, a lot of waste in terms of funding that you bring in. They just waste a lot of money. It was kind of they operated the same as a business, but without the focus on the numbers, and the commercial side, there was less of that, so it was quite an eye-opener.

The work that they did was phenomenal. They did a lot of stuff with child soldiers and helping children get back into education, and the internal communications of these stories was pretty poor. I worked a lot with them on, when I get funding in, I would send, I’d create my own newsletters and updates from the field to try and tell the sponsors no matter how much they gave us, to let them feel and see what they [inaudible].

Nathan Anibaba:

Sure.

Joanne White:

That just wasn’t there and it was frustrating because those stories are powerful. They’re what bring in the business and motivate staff. They did it good externally on the websites and stuff, but not really inside. I started to think internal coms would be something I would be more interested in, which is what I then went into the government to do afterwards.

Nathan Anibaba:

Let’s talk about that then. You left Save the Children to go and work for the government. You’ve, at this point, you’ve got private sector experience, charity experience, now, working for the government, you wanted the best of both worlds. What was that experience like?

Joanne White:

Yeah. It was fantastic. I went in there, it’s like a quango, if you remember what they were. It was like we had a bit of separation from government, so it wasn’t like the Ministry of Justice or something, so we had a bit more freedom of what we could do. It was a nice environment. Everyone was there for a good reason and we were doing a job for good, for a good cause. It was the Legal Services Commission, so it was about giving people access to legal aid.

I went in under a Labour government and there was a lot of funding, and it was all great, and then the government changed when we were there and it was fascinating to see how different things are in government when you get a new party in. But I was working with barristers, lawyers, special advisors, putting events on the Houses of Parliament.

Nathan Anibaba:

Wow.

Joanne White:

I really [crosstalk] politics and got really into it. It was fantastic and I’ve always been interested in politics and how politicians talk and the people around them, so it was great on loads of levels.

Nathan Anibaba:

Really?

Joanne White:

Yeah, but of course, again, it’s slow paced. Not a lot of change. Not like in the private sector. Again, a lot red tape. Obviously a lot of red tape. Everything you do gets signed off by 100 people. But I was very lucky to work with the chief exec, the new chief exec that came in, and I used to write her speeches for her, which was amazing because I’d watch her say the words that I’d written.

Nathan Anibaba:

Amazing.

Joanne White:

That’s so cool, especially if you’re writing stuff that you’re really passionate about. Yeah, it was very good experience.

Nathan Anibaba:

Who was the incumbent government at the time, and what surprised you about working with government at that time, that you hadn’t really expected?

Joanne White:

Yeah, so when the Conservatives came in, they just cut a lot. They cut a lot. We did waste a lot of money. I cut a budget of 1.5 million I think it was, for leaflets and stuff we used to produce, right down to less than 500 K. There was a lot of waste [crosstalk] just because we had the money and that does need to change because it’s public money, but they cut really low and there was impact on different areas of society like domestic abuse and things. Putting means testing in so people couldn’t get access to legal aid. It was very hard and it was very hard decisions we had to make about the types of communications and events we would do. We had a helpline and we had to cut that, we have to cut people, and when you work somewhere and you can really see the impact of what you do and then suddenly you get the money taken away, it’s very hard.

Barristers and lawyers as well, up in arms. We had a lot of stakeholders to work with and you just muddle in between the two. You’re siding with what everyone’s saying, but you’ve also got to back the government that is funding you as a department, so I found it very hard, which is one of the reasons why I left because well, I didn’t feel true to myself. Having to stand up for the cuts we were making when, in my heart, I didn’t agree with any of it. Yeah, that’s why I moved on from there.

Nathan Anibaba:             Something that isn’t talked about enough is regional discrimination, and it’s still a really big problem. People from the north are treated different to those in London and the south. You’re from Liverpool yourself, have you experienced any of that sort of discrimination?

Joanne White:                 Yeah, I did. When I was at Ford. They were based in Brentwood in Essex, and yeah, from the minute I started there, there were just comments all the time about being a scouser, and it’s quite a bit of banter people call it, but it got to the point where, when we’d be going down to lunch in the lift and you’d be sharing the lift with very senior people, and some people would be saying things like, “Oh, here’s the scouser in the lift. Watch your handbags, watch your wallet.” This whole perception that I’m going to steal from everyone and I’m untrustworthy. When you’re going into meetings with people you don’t know, if they’ve heard that about you when you go in, it’s very, very hard because you’re trying to establish yourself in a business but you’re constantly being knocked down with these stereotypes.

It was, it was something. I’m quite a strong person, so I’d give as good back. Not in front of senior people, but the people that would say it on a one-on-one, I’d give as good back, to them. But I was young as well and it was my first job, so I just thought oh, this is how it is. But when I left Ford and I had an exit interview, and it’s obviously very thorough there, I did bring it up and I said what it felt like, especially in the start, at the beginning when people didn’t know me, how hard it was, and they changed their whole diversity policy to include regional discrimination, so that is something that is frowned upon and not encouraged when you’re there. It’s not banter, it’s…

Nathan Anibaba:

It’s not part of just the way that people talk in the office.

Joanne White:

No. Well you can just sit there and roll your eyes at it.

Nathan Anibaba:

Sure.

Joanne White:

But [crosstalk] it does damage your reputation in a business. Of someone doesn’t know you, then as soon as they see you they think oh yeah, she’s the… You know?

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah. It has implications. Do you think it’s still a problem today? How much of a problem is it?

Joanne White:

I think there is definitely a north/south divide, and I think the media doesn’t help either. I heard someone from Liverpool on Radio 4 getting interviewed about stuff, and they just seem to pick the people that aren’t eloquent and it just reinforces the thing that oh, northerners are thick or whatever it is. I think it [crosstalk], but I don’t think the media helps because they just like to pick the extremes of [crosstalk].

Nathan Anibaba:

Sure.

Joanne White:

It’s not just Liverpool, I think other towns get it as well, so yeah, I think there is. With education, when you look at class, the class divide, so one of the things we’ve been talking about recently is boys in education, white, working class boys. By the time of age 11, they’re very disengaged with education and there’s a massive issue there. It’s something that needs to be addressed in that level as well I think.

Nathan Anibaba:

We’ll come back to that in a moment because you are head of global marketing at Teacherly, as we said at the top of the show. It’s a collaborative lesson planning and peer-to-peer coaching platform. You’re a disruptive EdTech company. What are you disrupting and tell us what some of the problems are that you’re solving for your customers.

Joanne White:

Yeah, so if you think about educators today, like today today, you’ve got people that are tutors, you’ve got teachers, since COVID you’ve got parents who became teachers at home and we all know the struggle of that, and then the only sort of technology that they’ve got available to them is your Microsoft Teams, your Google Classroom, and they’re very much built for enterprise and business, not for education. What Teacherly is, is it’s a tool that is built by educators to help educators do their job more efficiently, so it’s a case of making it easier for teachers to plan, which is a massive admin burden for a lot of teachers. Then collaboration is key, so one of the big things we’re doing is connecting teachers all over the world, so that you might be a teacher at a school here and feel a bit isolated, or you’re not in a good area and you need support and mentorship from someone else, so you can connect with teachers all over the world. We’re trying to build this global workforce that supports and inspires each other in the platform and outside as well.

Then when it comes to teaching that lesson that you’ve collaborated on and made it the best it can be, you can do that remotely, you can do it in class, you can do it simultaneously. With COVID you’ve seen teachers, a profession that needs to be more flexible, and that’s what our technology helps them do, work more flexibly, and yeah, just something that’s right for the teachers and the educators of today really.

Nathan Anibaba:

You joined the company in April of this year, mid COVID-19. What a time to start in the company.

Joanne White:

Yeah. It was a challenge. It was a rollercoaster.

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah.

Joanne White:

Because everyone would be the same that was working from home. I’ve got a six-year-old and a two and a half-year-old, and as wonderful as they are, they need entertaining and one needed home schooling, and I was trying to establish myself over Zoom calls, that I was actually a credible employee. It’s a difficult juggle you know?

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah. They want to be part of your meetings.

Joanne White:

Oh my God. One of them, Xavier, who’s my two and a half-year-old, and I’d set up things for them to so that they would be safe and out of the way while I was on these calls, and it’d just go wrong and things would be happening. They’d be jumping off sofas on each other and you’re trying to remain professional on the call, and [inaudible], yeah. It was hard times, but they’re very supportive. Our founder has two children of a similar age [crosstalk].

Nathan Anibaba:

Okay. He knows exactly what’s happening.

Joanne White:

Yeah.

Nathan Anibaba:

Right.

Joanne White:

It was me. It was the pressure I was putting on myself to do it.

Nathan Anibaba:

Sure.

Joanne White:

To be the person I would be if the children weren’t there, but the circumstances had changed massively, so yeah, you just can’t help it can you? I think people got tired of your children coming in and pulling faces on the screen. It was like oh God, another child again towards the end, but I guess one of the things I’ve always done, which I wish I hadn’t done really, but I kept work and private completely separate, so I was known as a kind of ice queen and stuff in work. People didn’t really know because I had a job to do and I went there, and I think it was because of where my career had started. COVID changed all that because suddenly your life was in work and the whole two lives had merged together, so people really know you because they know your house, they know your kids, they know everything.

Nathan Anibaba:

Right. Yeah, you can’t really hide much.

Joanne White:

[crosstalk]. No. When your child licks your arm while you’re trying to have a [crosstalk].

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah. All of your vulnerabilities are there on show.

Joanne White:

[crosstalk].

Nathan Anibaba:

Let’s talk a little bit about Teacherly and education more broadly, because you mentioned a moment ago that 11-year-old white boys specifically are disengaged with their education, it’s a problem that a number of governments have tried to address in recent years. Why is that such a problem and what can be done about it?

Joanne White:

Well, all this is new to me, so we have some very deep conversations here at Teacherly and we want to use our platform, as in our brand, to start having these conversations and discussion to find out the answers. Quite interestingly, when I was talking to Joy who’s an educator in our team, she used to teach in early years and have a mix of boys in the classroom, and she was saying that when she had a cohort with about 14 boys, she changed the way she taught them. I did quite understand what she meant because I’ve got a boy and a girl, and regardless of how you try to bring them up the same, they are different. They learn differently, they behave differently, and from the minute, I think, a boy is born, you treat them differently as a parent and [crosstalk].

Nathan Anibaba:

Subconsciously.

Joanne White:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s stats that say, I don’t necessarily agree with this, but you would leave a boy baby to cry longer than a girl. Little things like that.

Nathan Anibaba:

Oh, I see. To toughen them up almost.

Joanne White:

Yeah, maybe. Like I say, it’s unconscious and like I say, I don’t feel like I was like that at all, but this is what research tells you. Then boys are more boisterous and they run around a lot. They don’t keep still, whereas girls will sit and read, and I’ve seen this myself with both children. Then when you think of early years and teaching, so boys have had this experience, then they go into school and who teaches them in school? It’s mainly females because there aren’t [inaudible] male teachers in early years, which is another issue.

They’ve gone from behaving as boys do, then they get into school and they’re told to sit down, and they’re basically taught the female way. One of the things that Joy said when she was teaching this cohort of boys in her class and she said to the head teacher, “I’m going to have to change how I teach,” she said, “Boys just fall off the chair all the time. They can’t sit still because they’re used to running around.” The first thing she did was put a yoga ball in for the boys. [crosstalk] sit and roll around on it, and [crosstalk] effectively. She said to them things like, “You don’t need to sit at your desk, you can sit on your desk, you can sit under it, you can sit in the corner on beanbags.”

Nathan Anibaba:

Okay.

Joanne White:

[crosstalk] so you can work. Really thinking about how boys are and making sure that they are helped really in the classroom, to help them learn because otherwise, what happens is the teachers call them disruptive, there’s ADHD because they want to run around a lot, and instead of looking at what the child is doing in the classroom and adapting, you’re trying to force them to learn like girls. Because girls are teaching them, they’re getting taught a certain way, and so they become disengaged potentially. This is one of the things we were talking about. By the time they get to 11 and they’re going into high school, they’ve just fell out of love. They’ve been nagged at in the classroom the whole time. They haven’t had any role models, any teacher role models. They’ve been taught a certain way.

Not all schools do this. You’ve got Forest Schools that would… You go out and you count worms outside instead of sitting at the table and counting coins. There’s different ways of using activities to engage boys in early years, that you can try and get them loving education rather than trying to force them into a certain way of learning. I think that might be an issue, and role models, yeah, the male role models, they don’t have any of them until they get into senior school, which is quite a long time when you think about it. Early years is a really important time, so yeah, I’m sure there’s lots of reasons to unpick, but that was just one of the things we discussed recently, which was quite fascinating. I’d never really thought about it before.

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah. I don’t think a lot of people have actually, but you raise some really interesting points. You also celebrate diversity in the classroom, celebrating unknown heroes like Lewis Latimer. Who was he and why do you celebrate diversity in the classroom?

Joanne White:

Yeah, so since the Black Live Matter movement, we’ve been thinking about ways we can have the discussion around equity and equality in the classroom, and thinking about, again, this is something being from I’m white, I’ve had a very white education and I didn’t know any of these things existed, but obviously we are a very diverse team, and hearing their different experiences from all over the world was eye-opening.

Then we heard Michael Holder, who’s a West Indies cricketer, he was getting interviewed on Sky and he gave a really impassioned talked about how we need to change education to make change in society. He mentioned the inventor of the light bulb, Thomas Edison, and he said, “That’s who you think invented the light bulb,” and he said, “Look, he invented it with a paper filament so it burnt out and it didn’t work, but the person that created the carbon filament that allows lights to shine is Lewis Howard Latimer, and no one ever talks about him because he’s a black man.” His point was that you only ever hear one side of a story, and it’s usually the conqueror’s story.

Nathan Anibaba:

Sure.

Joanne White:

What we need to do is tell both sides. Then you look at getting the men to the moon, no one talks about the women. Well they are doing now, but no one talked about the women that got them to the moon, so it crosses all kinds of discrimination really and you only hear one story. What we’re trying to do at Teacherly is look at ways that you can introduce more heroes into the classroom and talk more broadly, so we’ve got a whole series of people to put out on social to just remind them that there are other sides of the story that we need to bring into the classroom. Because people need role models, and if you’re only showing them white, male role models, then it’s not very inspirational for everyone else is it?

Nathan Anibaba:

If you can’t see it, you can’t be it.

Joanne White:

Exactly.

Nathan Anibaba:

As they say.

Joanne White:

Yeah, yeah, true.

Nathan Anibaba:

Definitely. Just bringing the interview towards an end now before we get into our speed round that we ask all of our guests, you’ve got private sector experience, public sector experience and charity, what’s been the main takeaways from working across those three very different sectors?

Joanne White:

Yeah. They are very different. I’ve got takeaways on how they run, but I think, for me as a person, what I’ve taken away in the jobs that I’ve taken and the people that have interviewed me, I think it’s really important to not just jump into a role because you’re desperate or you think you need a job, and to really know who you are and who the business is because when you go into a role that your heart isn’t in, you don’t give it your all and you don’t give as much as you can. You can get frustrated and then you move on again quickly. I think you have to be very honest with yourself in an interview and remember that you’re interviewing that job because you want to stay there, you want to have an impact, and you have to believe in the people and what they’re doing, and be true to yourself really. It’s took me a long time to realize that, but I think it’s very important.

Whichever sector you go in, it really is worth doing it for something deeper than just the money or the need. If you’ve got the opportunity obviously. It’s very different for people now because people need to be in work, but if you have the opportunity, yeah, I’d think before you jump.

Nathan Anibaba:

Really interesting. Let’s get into our speed round now Joanne. These are our questions that we ask all of the guests that come onto the show. These questions are more like the questions for the person behind the brand a little bit, so I’ll fire some questions at you, if you can fire some answers back that would be great.

Joanne White:

Okay.

Nathan Anibaba:

Which CMO has the hardest job in marketing right now?

Joanne White:

I think everyone does because values have changed. People attitudes and behaviors have shifted massively, so people in the travel and hospitality sector, I think yeah, really tough job now to try and understand where people’s head are at and their behaviors and values. Very difficult.

Nathan Anibaba:

What’s the single biggest thing that frustrates you about working with agencies and what do you absolutely love about working with agencies?

Joanne White:

Absolutely love the energy and the ideas, and when sometimes you’ve looked at something for a long time and then someone looks at it and they’re really enthusiastic and tell you how amazing it is, and it brings that joy again which is fantastic.

The frustration is, what’s would that be? I think impact. I think really feeding back the impact of what a campaign is going to do. The real hard numbers. That really getting into the nitty gritty around that has been my experience in the past.

Nathan Anibaba:

How do you best harmonize your work and personal life, especially at this time, for a healthy balance? What are your biggest challenges around that?

Joanne White:

I don’t harmonize it any [crosstalk]. Yeah, it’s a real struggle. I don’t. I’m trying so hard to put a barrier between work and home life, so that I finish at a certain time, but I haven’t got any tips for that yet. I need to put my family first is what I need to start doing, and [inaudible] working into the evenings and realize what’s important in life, and working until 10 o’clock at night isn’t really because it’s not actually that effective once you get after a certain time. Yeah, I am struggling ongoing with this, and always have done.

Nathan Anibaba:

You, me and the rest of the country I think. What excites you most about your current role and position?

Joanne White:

Just being able to make a little bit of difference. The owner at Frog used to say, “You’ve got one life. If you can have a small impact somewhere, then it’s worth it.” I think this role’s going to allow me to do that, even if it’s just a couple of teachers somewhere that change the way they teach and that class has a positive impact. That’s quite an exciting prospect for me.

Nathan Anibaba:

Well said. If you weren’t doing your current job, what would you be doing? Or let me rephrase that, if you weren’t in marketing, what other sector or what other profession would you be in?

Joanne White:

I’d love to be an ultra runner.

Nathan Anibaba:

Okay.

Joanne White:

[crosstalk] to get there. I would be training for the Spine Race, which is the whole of the Pennines.

Nathan Anibaba:

Oh wow.

Joanne White:

It’s 268 miles.

Nathan Anibaba:

Oh my God.

Joanne White:

Jasmine Paris, actually, I don’t know if Damien Hall has just broken the record, but she did it maybe last year or the year before for under 83 hours, and she was breastfeeding. Shed just [inaudible]. I think it was because she didn’t need sleep because when you’re a new mum, you don’t sleep, so she didn’t need to sleep during the race.

Nathan Anibaba:

Okay.

Joanne White:

She beat the [inaudible].

Nathan Anibaba:

She ran through the night?

Joanne White:

Yeah, yeah. She did literally.

Nathan Anibaba:

As you do.

Joanne White:

And she did it in 83 hours. Yeah. It’s in January, so it’s brutal. Because it’s from Edale in Derbyshire, which is not that far, all the way up to Scotland. It’s brutal. It’s a tough race.

Nathan Anibaba:

Okay.

Joanne White:

I’d be training for that and [crosstalk].

Nathan Anibaba:

Is it something you want to do?

Joanne White:

Oh, I’ll do it. I’ll do it.

Nathan Anibaba:

It sounds like far too much hard work and pain.

Joanne White:

I know, but it’s the challenge [inaudible].

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah. Okay.

Joanne White:

[inaudible].

Nathan Anibaba:

If you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be and why? Not that it’s possible under lockdown by the way.

Joanne White:

Yeah. I’d probably be in the mountains somewhere. Maybe the Swiss mountains, looking at the beautiful view.

Nathan Anibaba:

Beautiful.

Joanne White:

Yeah. Why? Because it’s just really beautiful out there. I like mountains, I like doing a lot of walking outdoors, and you could of skiing and it’s really hot in the summer. I just think you could have a nice life out there. They’re really clean as well in Switzerland [crosstalk], but it’s a very clean place, which is obviously [crosstalk] right now.

Nathan Anibaba:

It is. Yeah, definitely. Very clean and very expensive. My final question Joanne, what’s the single biggest thing that you’re yet to achieve that you’d like to achieve in your career?

Joanne White:

Wow. I think it’s more passing on what I’ve learned, like you’re younger self. I’ve got a young team here and I like mentoring. Not in a I’ll tell you how to live your life kind of way, but helping guide people, and when their confidence is knocked, building it up and that sort of stuff. I think I want to do something around that, whether it’s talking about it, writing a book or something. I don’t know.

Nathan Anibaba:

Doing podcasts?

Joanne White:

Maybe, yeah. Maybe. Let’s see how this goes.

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah, exactly. No, thank you for your time Joanne. I’ve really enjoyed it.

Joanne White:

Yeah, thank you. It’s been good.

Nathan Anibaba:

If you’d like to share any comments on this episode or any episode of ClientSide, then find us online at fox.agency. If you’d like to appear as a guest on the show, please email milly@fox.agency. The people that make this show possible are Milly Bell and Natasha [Rositch], our booker/researcher. David Claire is our head of content, Ben Fox is our executive producer, I’m Nathan Anibaba, you’ve been listening to ClientSide from Fox Agency. And we’re done.

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