Attracting & nurturing top tech talent

Speaker 1:

This is ClientSide from Fox Agency.

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Nathan Anibaba:

Tania Jones is Community and Global Talent Partner at Farfetch. She is a passionate community builder and has worked with several leading global brands across building team, excellent customer service, facility operations, scaling business and marketing strategy. Also, Farfetch is a leading global platform for the luxury fashion industry, their mission is to be the global platform for luxury, fashion, connecting creators, curators and consumers. Tania Jones, welcome to ClientSide.

Tania Jones:

Thanks, Nathan. I’m so happy to be here.

Nathan Anibaba:

Super excited to have you on the show, Tania, thank you very much for doing it. Let’s start the conversation by talking about tech in India. There are far more computer programmers than anywhere in the world, you create a huge number of graduates every single year, a ton of private equity investment has headed to India in recent years. What are the factors that are contributed towards the tech boom in India?

Tania Jones:

Great question, Nathan. So, I think it’s a bunch of different things. One is, culturally, in Indian you either become a doctor or an engineer when you’re growing up. That’s what parents want you to do. So, we have, of course, a lot of engineers that are in this market and it’s not just the quantity but it’s, I think, also the quality of people in terms of the education that they’ve been given. So, what’s actually happened is, companies in Silicon Valley in the US, startups in India, everybody has realized that this is the market for tech. So, what’s been happening in term of hiring, when you look at the volumes that people are hiring for in terms of data or engineering, India has just become one of those markets that you would go to to find talent. We’re doing that as well in Farfetch.

Tech hubs and smaller tech hubs is probably the way things are going, whether it’s European companies looking at development centers in India, or large startups globally that are hiring from India, or even the big startups. Here you have huge amount of companies that are focused on the tech space. I think it’s also in terms of quality and cost of talent, I think that’s the second thing that is important. 30% salary premiums to a [inaudible 00:02:46] employees, which is heating up the market as well.

And I think that’s also leading to a gap between supply and demand, in terms of finding that talent at a certain price. I think, also, the market is focused on retention of talent in the tech space, so you’re looking at 30% to 35% salary increases over the last two years, because of the demand for tech talent in India.

Nathan Anibaba:

We’re going to talk a moment about talent attraction and keeping talent in a moment, but before we do let’s talk about Farfetch a little bit more because it’s an absolutely fascinating company. I’m super interested in it, you can tell I have no fashion sense by looking at me right now, but I’m interested in fashion, not that I’m very good at executing. But tell us a little bit more about the company, it’s a fascinating company.

Tania Jones:

It really is a very fascinating company, it’s not only the largest fashion tech company, globally, but we also have… I’d say the reason why we say fashion tech is that the eCommerce part is not the only part of the business. Of course, farfetch.com, you come onto the website, you have everything under the sun. SO, it’s all boutiques that are across the globe, that sell everything from your Gucci, Prada, Louis Vuitton, et cetera.

But what’s also interesting is that when we look at something called Farfetch Platform Solutions, we essentially are working with pretty much every luxury fashion brand that you can think of, to help them build a digital ecosystem. So, from helping them build their website to providing them operation services, logistic services, as well creating and trusting new age tech. When you look at AI, when look at things like store the future that Farfetch created, we have one for Browns Fashion in the UK, we have one for Chanel in Paris. This is like, you walk into a store and the store is literally telling you what you should be shopping for. O, that’s something that’s very interesting that we do. But, essentially, what we’re doing in we’re building a community of people, partners and customers across the globe, in short.

Nathan Anibaba:

You talked about some of the trend there happening in technology, in fashion specifically, around using AI, VR and AR to create more of an immersive shopping experience, let’s say, retail experience. What are some of the other larger macro trends in fashion today? Maybe just outline for the laggards and those of us not as fashion conscious as we should be, what are the more larger macro transit at play here? And we use that as a jumping off point.

Tania Jones:

Yeah, so I give my personal opinion on this because, at the end of the day, I don’t think I’m a big fashionista, which is why I’m in the community’s phase at the company and not-

Nathan Anibaba:

A designer.

Tania Jones:

… a fashion stylist. But if I had to think about the fashion that currently are really big, one that I truly believe in a lot is conscious fashion choices, so there’s a whole sustainable production and circular fashion which is essentially the waste and how they’re building these products. Upcycle design, I think that’s one of the big macro trends today, colorful, bright, so it’s all about bold colors. I think the other one I can think of is art through fashion, so a lot of art design on clothes that you’re wearing. And one that I certainly find very interesting is chunky platform heels, because when you look a them you’re like, “How is somebody even wearing this?” This person is definitely going to fall but I think that’s another big fashion trend that I see of late. I think this is out of my head what I can think of.

Nathan Anibaba:

So, as far as your role and responsibility at Farfetch, what does that look like? What does a community and global talent partner do?

Tania Jones:

My role’s actually very interesting at Farfetch, I do a little bit of everything. So, community I think is a big part, the India office is a tech hub, like I mentioned, so for us it was a lot of building the team in India, building a community of Farfetchers. So, I manage talent on the data side for India as well as on global data roles as well. In addition, I help with strategy in the office, in terms of, “What are we looking at building up in the India space?” I also support with our DNI, that’s another part that’s super important to me in an organization and I am so glad that Farfetch actually cares a lot about diversity and inclusion.

So, I am the co-chair of one of our DNI communities, which is [inaudible 00:07:47], which is for the South Asian network. That’s another part of what I support with, and in general I think it’s a little bit of people side, calm community building with data community building as well, internally, when we look at internal communications and how we’re building our brand internally for our people.

Nathan Anibaba:

So, let’s talk a little bit about that in a bit more detail then. So, attracting talent and keeping talent, especially for global tech businesses is a huge challenge, even more so now. There are a number of factors that have led to a number of people choosing where they want to work, who they want to work for. Maybe talk about how you’re thinking about attracting and keeping the best talent for Farfetch.

Tania Jones:

Great question. So, in different countries I think talent is looked at, or the importance of what an organization is giving is different. When you look at it globally I think the one thing that’s super important for everybody is an inclusive company culture and representation is key to attract, retain and develop tech talent. I think in addition to that you can think about salary, culture, flexability, I think, work from home is the new trend, Everybody is going into organizations that are comfortable with people working from homme and office when they want to, so that flexability I think is super, super important.

When I also said about inclusive company culture, I think DNI is a big part of the way somebody looks at an organization, it’s a representation of different cultures at different levels, are there women in tech? Are there women at senior level in the organization, because that also showcases what the vibe of the company would be like. I think other things that are important in terms of keeping talented is definitely compensation and fair compensation, I would say transparent compensation at all levels.

And then, of course, when you think about incentives you’re thinking about the different types of benefits that the organization gives you in terms of mental health awareness, you’re talking about medical insurances, you’re talking about smaller little things like fitness and health choices that the organization provides. I think these are some of the things that are important when you’re looking at hiring people.

Nathan Anibaba:

And then when it comes to the diversity and inclusion side, maybe let’s unpack that a little bit because we know what that means in the UK, or I know what that means in the UK and possibly North America a lot of our listeners are. But what doea that mean in India when it’s such a diverse country, both from a religious point of view, from a cultural point of view, talk about what diversity, equity and inclusion means, specifically in the Indian context.

Tania Jones:

Yeah, so I think in terms of the India context when you look at diversity and inclusion, you’re thinking about fairness at all levels, you’re thinking about the kind of people that work in the organization at different departments, whether you’re in tech or non-tech. A lot of DNI also in India, like when you look at universities hat teach engineering you notice that it’s 90% men and 10% women, and the same thing happens in the company. You’ve seen more men in tech versus women. I think DNI for companies here also is ensuring that you have more women in tech.

I think the other part of diversity in a place like India is, India has so many different states so it’s also ensuring that when you’re working in one part you’re also having different types of backgrounds in the organization and in the team. And it could mean diversity when it comes to different people from different states, or it could be different people different cultural aesthetics, or ethics, I think. It’s a bunch of all of that, in my opinion.

Nathan Anibaba:

And how do you spot the difference between A players and B and C players, because the difference between hiring an A player developer, let’s say, versus a C player one can be drastic, both in terms of the opportunities missed and their ability to do their job at a really high level. What are some of the processes and interview techniques and skills that you’re employing to make sure that you hire ore A players, rather than Cs?

Tania Jones:

So, I think when it comes to tech the number of applications, especially when you look at the market like India compared to other parts, when I’m hiring. You see that you do have to filter the kind of people that you even get to a face-to-face interview stage. So, I think what we focus on is, of course, technical tests to ensure that we judge people’s technical knowledge on different program languages that they need. So, there obviously that skill assessment that we do.

The second level would then be a technical face-to-face round that would either involve a pair programming exercise, and then it would probably be either one or two technical face-to-face rounds, so focusing on different parts that are required for the job. It would then have another round that would focus on the growth in the organization, and then lastly it would be one of the most important parts is of course how do they fit culturally into the team.

And I think what we also like to do is that if, for example, one of the candidates is a woman, then we ensure that we also have a woman on the panel of interviewers, so there is that sense of diversity and inclusiveness when you’re interviewing.

Nathan Anibaba:

And of course you’re not just hiring for roles in India, you’re hiring across multiple other countries as well. Just give us an idea of the other locations that you’re hiring into, and maybe what are the challenges and differences that you’ve seen hiring talent in those other regions.

Tania Jones:

Yeah, this is a subject that I love talking about because it’s so interesting when you’re hiring four people in different locations because every location’s culture is so different. For example, the Number of applications, like I was saying, in India will be much higher than the number of applications in the UK, for example, for a particular role, it depends on what that role is. So it quantity versus quality as well, the chances of somebody in India you might have to go through 50 applications for a data engineer who fits what we want, versus screening CVs in the UK where it would be more relevant to what we need.

The second layer of difference I think would be the years of experience, like when you’re hiring for someone in Portugal. They might have started off as a business analyst and move to becoming a data engineer over 12 years. So, in India when you’re hiring for a data engineer you write, say, minimum five years or two to three years of experience for a data engineer, versus Portugal where you don’t write minimum years of experience. It’s just relevance of experience to the role.

I think the other difference is when you’re making the offer to someone in India. When you make an offer to someone in India they have four offers on hand, because that’s the volume of demand here. So, the chances of them accepting your offer and actually joining is very different, versus-

Nathan Anibaba:

It’s much lower.

Tania Jones:

It’s much lower, versus the UK or Portugal, when you’re making an offer and the person accepts the offer it’s almost certain that they will join when they accept. So, it’s a lot of that demand play in the market as well.

Nathan Anibaba:

Really interesting. So, tell us a little bit about as it gets towards the final stages of interviews, do you have any particular questions that you prefer to ask when it gets down to the final stages? Asking for actual your favorite interview questions that you like to ask, really, to get under the skin of whether or not this person could be the right hire.

Tania Jones:

So, I think, from our hiring framework which is actually very interesting, we do focus a lot on the values that we have. And these values aren’t just like words, these are actually values where I think most of the people in the organization are around, like when you say [foreign language 00:17:24] means for the better good of the company, doing it together. So, I think that’s a value that we also question a lot of people, and in terms their mindset of how they would look at working at Farfetch.

I think the second thing also is that when you’re coming and working in a fast growth organization, things are changing every day. We might be a company that’s been 12 years old but we’re still have that startup mindset, which is actually very exciting because everyone’s open to doing things differently and learning from the people as well. I think, for me, when I ask questions it’s always very direct, like when I was talking about when you’re hiring and you’re not sure whether this person’s going join, I always ask them, “How many offers do you have in hand right now?”

It also determines how quickly we move on with the interview process. It’s also, a lot of people when you’re hiring in other locations like to understand the clarity of your interview process, “How many more rounds do you have? How many people am I going to meet before you come up with a decision?” So, I think giving that transparent outlook in terms of the way the interview process is going to go in going to be very important.

I don’t think I have a particular question, though, that I can think of that I ask, which is my favorite question but I think it’s important that when you interview someone you also start off with just asking them how they are, and understanding how you as an employee connect with that person you’re interviewing. I think that’s super important to understand how the next rounds are going to go, because sometime what happens is also that you might meet somebody who culturally fits in really well but then technically probably doesn’t; and that’s what the other interview rounds are for. But I think as the first screening round I think it’s always important to understand ow you connect with that candidate who’s talking to you.

Nathan Anibaba:

And a point that you made earlier is really valid, at a certain stage in a company’s evolution they may require the certain skills of an individual but as the company grows the skillset and what’s needed to perform adequately in the job changes. So, what’s your approach to personal development, skills development, for an individual in a tech company such as Farfetch that’s growing so rapidly?

Tania Jones:

I think one of the question I do ask for that is, “How do you keep yourself up to date?” Especially when it comes to data engineering roles or software engineering roles, so much is changing. There’s different techs that is evolving, and you have to understand, ae these candidates upskilling themselves when they’re even interviewing for a role? How interested and passionate they are about the data space, I think that’s another one that super important and it’s clearly reflective when they are telling you how they keep themselves up to date. Are they part of hackathons, are they listening to podcasts in this space, are they reading blogs about the ways things are changing? I think the people that showcase that are the ones that I think are better at adapting themselves to an ever changing environment.

Nathan Anibaba:

And as far as methodologies or frameworks of hiring are concerned, I’ve followed the Silicon Valley process for hiring amazing tech people and one school of thought is, hire fast fire fast. Get people in the door that are super talented, let’s see whether or not they can actually deliver in the job. If they can, great, if they can’t let’s get rid of them. As opposed to a more slower methodical approach that has multiple rounds of interview across, meeting multiple people within the organization. What are the pros and cons of each and what’s your methodology, what’s your approach?

Tania Jones:

So, this is personal I wouldn’t put this on the organization as such, but I think for me it is start investing early. You’d rather hire someone at a junior level and train them to build them up to that senior level, and specially in a market like India, when I’m talking about India specifically. It’s always better to hire the smaller guys who are hungry for work, so you have to look at someone and see do they have the potential to grow with you in the organization.

Hire fast is definitely something that I don’t believe in because you should take your time to hire the right people. And this is what end up happening to most, especially when you look at startups, there is always this thing that you hear about, “Oh, this company is letting go of 100 people, is letting go 800 people.” And those are the companies that have hired fast, so they have gone through this loop of hiring, hiring, hiring, and then you see that the repercussions maybe months later when you’re having to start firing them because it doesn’t make business sense.

What I love, actually even at Farfetch I have to say this, I love the fact that we hire people for a reason. There is a business strategy of, “These the laws that are required and this is what each person is going to do in that team, and that is why we need to hire them.” And then there is an approval layer of whether this road should be open or not, and then you are hiring this person through this framework that we have, which is at different levels, so you’re taking your time to make sure that you’re hiring the right person for the role; because when you do have somebody come on there’s that whole experience of onboarding and bringing this person in. You don’t want to bring someone in just for the sake hiring because you want to fill this role in two weeks. Sometimes we take three months, four months to hire someone only because we’re not finding the right person. So, I think it’s important to hire the right people, not hire fast.

Nathan Anibaba:

And my final question, Tania, what advice would you give to other senior execs listening to this now about how best to attract and keep the best talent for their tech businesses?

Tania Jones:

I think I spoke about this a little earlier as well, for me I think the first would be, of course, be an inclusive company, culture is super important, the way the organization is, how open you are to women in tech, how open you are to hiring women, how open you are in hiring people from diverse backgrounds, to make it a very interesting organization. I think that’s number one.

The second thing, like I mentioned, is of course investing in people early. Hire people at a junior, mid-level and help them grow, because the minute you hire seniors only at that level then you’re going to have to think about retention, and you’re going to have to think about salary increases. So, I think growing, letting somebody grow with the organization is important. And then, of course, there is salary, there’s culture, there’s flexibility. Today’s day and age you’d need to be a flexible organization, you need to have transparency in terms of your salaries and your levels, and ensuring that as we work in a geodiagnostic environment today where it doesn’t matter which place someone lives in, there should be compensations at a global level. I think companies need to move towards that mindset so that people feel like, “Okay, we’re working for one organization and it doesn’t matter which part of the world we are in.”

And I think, lastly, international mobility is important, when you look at somebody living in eve Portugal, for example, they’d probably love to come and work out of India for a couple of months, so having that sort of environment where people can work in different locations, I think would be great. Personally, this is something I would like to do-

Nathan Anibaba:

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:26:02].

Tania Jones:

… but I think having that environment where you care for your people, employees need to be people in the organization that matter and not just employees who are helping build the next thing. I think that inclusivity and that mindset of care and transparency is important in an organization for you to grow.

Nathan Anibaba:

Well said. Great place to end. Tania< thank you so much for doing this.

Tania Jones:

Thank you so much for having me, Nathan, it’s been amazing.

Nathan Anibaba:

If you’d like to share any comments n this episode or any episode of clients, then find us online at fox.agency. If you’d like to appear as a guest on the show, then please email ClientSide@fox.agency. The people that make this show possible are Zoey Woodward, our executive producer. Hannah Teasdale is our podcast executive, Jennifer Brennan is our digital strategist supported by Sophia Ravanis and Alice Winterburn, our social and digital expert. I’m Nathan Anibaba, you’ve been listening to ClientSide from Fox Agency.

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