Proof over panic

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Debbie Forster MBE:
Hello and welcome to XTech Podcast by Fox Agency. I’m your host, Debbie Forster, MBE. I’m a tech portfolio consultant and an advocate and campaigner for diversity, inclusion and innovation in the tech industry. I’m delighted to be working with Fox Agency as the host for the XTech podcast and as a curator for the XTech community. Now today, I’m delighted to be joined by Sean Ferguson. He’s the Director of Corporate Marketing and Communications at Securonix. Welcome, Sean.

Sean Ferguson:
Thank you, Debbie. Glad to be here.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Right. Okay, Sean, I’d love to hear about tech, but I love to get to know the human behind that. So let’s start with how you got here. How did you find yourself in the world of tech? Some people wake up with the laptop in hand, coding. Others, like me, wake up one morning and find themselves there. How about you?

Sean Ferguson:
Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up on Commodore 64 and an Apple II. And I was an avid gamer as a kid and especially with adhd, something I could really get a consistent dopamine hit from. From there, I kind of procured a little bit of hacking, broke into my school servers three times before they threatened me with expulsion. And I kind of started directing my attention more into design and Photoshop and all the new things that Adobe was coming up. And I landed an internship with a family friend’s tech company, which it was predominantly hosting and websites and all that. So I kind of got my first foray with the tech industry very early and loved – I hate calling it bro culture, but it wasn’t really bro culture, but it was the more laid back, like, hey, there’s a snack room. We had a pool table in the middle of our offices. We were playing Quake Land parties on Friday nights and it kind of got me hooked in the tech there.

Debbie Forster MBE:
You’re going to have a lot of the audience nodding. I mean, you had them at the Commodore right then, moving through, I think you’re not alone. There’s so many people in the world of tech that are neurodivergent. And that was that lifeline for putting what some people, what probably education made you think is a weakness, and it became a strength and that much more flexible culture that allowed you to thrive. Now you say very young. How young is very young?

Sean Ferguson:
I was 12 when I was, yeah, I was breaking in. So I broke into the servers once and they patched it up. The second time was I was taking a Visual Basic course way back before the insane programming languages that they have now. And I was building through actually GUI and not just coding. I was building an Explorer and I was able to tap into the servers again and get unfiltered access. And that’s, they hit me there. And then I found a way to launch their terminal from the library computers and was messing around there and that was.

Debbie Forster MBE:
They probably still talk about Sean. You remember that kid Sean, who… But you came back from the dark side and that’s what’s made you so fantastic at what you do today.

Sean Ferguson:
Yeah. And then what was kind of cool too, is the school kind of leaned into it. I have to give them some credit there. So I was able to get into like an independent study my last year for one of their digital design courses. So I just got to sit in a room for two hours and design and brand and all that other fun stuff.

Debbie Forster MBE:
And I think, you know, in hearing that, a lot of people will recognise your story as their own. And a lot of people might be listening. And that gives them a hopeful way for their kids because they’re now getting to the stage where it is their kids who are being diagnosed as neurodivergent. And it’s not a negative term anymore, it’s just understanding a different whole brand. And tech is a great space to be neurodivergent in. I think there’s still a lot to go. And then you’re at Securonix now in looking about your company, looking at what they do, you know, and I know every vendor now, you can’t swing a cat without hitting a few companies that are claiming to be AI powered, whether it be their marketing, whether it be.

But you are AI powered security. Now you’re sticking your positioning as agentic AI as that distinct category. Now, how do you market a whole new category without it just sounding like buzzword bingo?

Sean Ferguson:
So that’s one of the biggest challenges we’ve had, is how do we, we can actually show how our agents work. We can actually show the agentic mesh, which we announced earlier, and our kind of AI SoC analyst. And I think that’s where. That’s really where the messaging’s gonna need to go. Last year, RSA black hat too. Everything just had agentic AI on it. And it really came down to, okay. People were gravitating towards that but now they’re not going to spend the money just because you say you have it. They actually need to see proof in there. And then the other thing too is like just building with partners and trusted networks too. Like our agents are powered by AWS and that helps us scale and build trust with customers because a lot of our customers already operate on that infrastructure.

So now we have our agents that do very specific needs on that infrastructure. I think that’s probably another realm of it too, of how we’re leaning into this category so hard. When people say agentic AI they think that there’s all these things that are combining with each other and doing everything at once. When in reality it’s our agents are constructed each individually. So one handles triage, one handles false positives, one handles briefing and sending out reports.

Debbie Forster MBE:
And I think in talking about it that way. Well I think there’s more than just talking about it that way. You’ve gone about it in a different way and that comes through in what you’re saying. And I hear less is more. It’s saying that. And I did notice you very trudely went ahead and commissioned a Forrester Total economic impact study. It came out with some crazy good numbers. 193% ROI, 58% stock efficiency, 19% risk reduction. Now when you have some great figures like that, that’s almost as bad as buzzword bingo. And that mistrust you talked about starts breeding in. How do you cut through that again to show you know what you do and you do what you say?

Sean Ferguson:
So we kind of take a three pronged approach there. We have our customers who are able to show this. A lot of one of our sales cycles is we’ll have references of hey, our customers actually achieved this number. The other ones we’ve evaluated on the interior, can we actually do this? Can it actually show this percentage of reduced false positive? And then it’s also, it’s looking at the paper trail too. One of our numbers is 193% return on investment. With that six month payback period we can show that ROI. But that six month payback period is what adds that authority to there. It’s like hey, you’re not immediately going to install our stuff and get that ROI. It’s going to be over time.

But it is actually shown and validated by Forrester, validated by our customers, validated on the internal through us to be able to prove that to you. And that’s why we’re just, we’ve been just putting on everything and I’ve had legal on me too, being like, you know, can we prove this? Like, it’s like, yes, every single time I have something reduce on, yes, we can. And here is why I think that’s just a really great story and builds that trust with the customers. Kind of going back to what you’re saying with agentic AI you have, you’re going to have two different companies of ones that are going to lose that trust, that authority because they just ran with the buzzwords and they didn’t show that they can do it.

And then you have ones that are going to gain more customers, build more trust, kind of move and get that more brand footprint in the space because they were able to do that.

Debbie Forster MBE:
And I love, you know, if I’m listening to this and thinking about my own company, there’s almost that triangulation that you’re doing because like we said, a lot of people would pay for it. Get the numbers that feel good, too good to be true, and just take the money and run, just run with it. The fact that you internally verified, you know, you went looking to see can we prove it wrong. The fact that you could go to customers because then you’re starting to push into that trusted voice piece of bringing that together. But I also love that you make it by adding that time, framing it cuts through that – well how do you know it? Of course they’d say that’s too good to be true, really making that concrete. And in that sense, your lawyers are your friend.

That legal coming and saying, can you prove it? Absolutely. That’s what’s going to cut through the noise. That’s where you get the credibility. So it’s really smart. And I think going back to what we talked about just before as well, partnering, trusted partnering work with people who have trust in the field that you can then parley with. So when you put those three things together, that becomes an almost unbeatable combination. That’s how you get in the door. You have still to make the sale, you still then have to deliver on it. But, but that is what’s making you stand out against the rest, isn’t it?

Sean Ferguson:
Absolutely. And I think that’s the great thing about this company too is when I first joined, and you don’t know, you know, like, yes, it’s a, it’s a really kind of rough job market out there and you don’t know, okay, is this going to be the good one? You know, Is this going to be the fun one? But it’s with people that were a lot of passion and it feels like that our product team is very. It’s very much like I said, the internal validation, like, can we really say we can do this? My team and the product marketing, the demand gen, when we came in here, it’s. We need to build authority on actual stuff that we can do. Avoid the buzzwords, but also put out really good content, really good thought leadership, make people think and have it.

At least on my realm, it’s well written, follows our voice and tone, sticks with our narrative. And where do we need to shift when we need to. And going back to your partners, I think that’s where we’ve developed this really great relationship with our partners because we want to put out content with their, you know, celebrating them because they’re helping us accomplish things. And that starts building more and more. So where we can go back and say, hey, can you guys come and show them what we’re able to do? And they’re like, absolutely. Like, hey, here’s how it works under the hood. And I will stick my sword in the ground on that. That a lot of what marketing and communications is is building trust across the board, internally and with customers, and then not violating that trust. We’ve seen brands, you know, fall, rise and fall from that.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Yeah, I like that I’m hearing that. I think some of the changes I’ve been hearing, I hear so much around comms and marketing that is about penetration and noise, and it’s easy to lose the thing that actually, what makes that, not just the sale, but the relationship is that trust is the authority. And those are really old concepts when we have to build them different ways now. But those are the things that are really going to create those sales relationships that you can build from and scale from.

Sean Ferguson:
Absolutely. And especially in the age of integration and acquisition, we have companies that are just. We’ve had probably about five acquisitions in the past five months. So now trust is the probably most important thing because the immediate thought is things are going to change and you need to just reassure your customers. Even the cybersecurity industry in itself, because you have security analysts who are looking at you for authority. They’re not your buyers. But if you have security analysts going from company to company of these acquisitions and they go, hey, by the way, these guys are actually legit. It just, you’re creating little brand ambassadors that you don’t even know you are creating.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Lovely. I’m going to remember that because we will go on to talk about those more traditional what metrics? The analytic, the data led. But, but I think that bit about trust, with all of the chaos, that’s whether it’s acquisitions, whether it’s the economy, whether it’s what’s happening and security and everything else going back to that trust building and maintaining the trust I think is a golden thread here. Okay, well let’s think about it. Now you have to compete against some big players. You know, the Microsoft’s, the CrowdStrikes, the Palo Altos. They’ve got massive budgets and they’ve got their own AI narratives. You’re marketing in a category where the giants can outspend you 10 to 1 on a slow day. What’s your asymmetric advantage in the battle for mindcheck?

Sean Ferguson:
It’s really just, it’s being authoritative, backing up the claim similar to what we’re talking about with the trust. I think at the same time it’s really flooding the zone with just meaningful content, interesting things that we want to talk about. I like to position a lot of our security evangelists on in defcon, blockchain black hats, blogs, on podcasts and just they always come to me and say hey, what do you want me to talk about? I say talk about something interesting. You know. Yes, there is a sliver of sales pitch there. Hey, by the way, if you’re interested, you know we have these agents come to securonix.com but no one wants to listen to an hour long sales pitch. No one wants to go see a presentation of a sales pitch. They want to learn something. They want to see the experiments you’re doing.

They want to see on the product side realm again more experiments. What are you doing? What are you trying to push needle? What are you trying to figure out if you can’t actually do this? On the calm side is we just want to shine light on things that people aren’t necessarily thinking about. User behaviour, analytics, the insider threat aspect. We had all those acquisitions that I was talking about and people stopped thinking okay, well now there’s inside risk. We’re looking outward but we’re not looking of okay, who’s the guy exfiltrating information. And one of the things we did too is we did which I need to continue on it been a pretty little slow pace on that is it’s insider, the insider threat series. And it’s just these really prominent, some known, some unknown cases of insider threats. Like one guy was hiding USBs in his sandwiches and going out and handing them off on a park bench to a competitor, which is wild to me.

Debbie Forster MBE:
That’s like cold war spy stuff, isn’t it, actually?

Sean Ferguson:
And he was actually, if I remember correctly, he was actually a big proponent of spy novels, and that’s kind of where he got all these crazy ideas.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Living out the fantasies in the tech world.

Sean Ferguson:
But that’s the interesting stuff, and that’s what kind of cracks you out from the noise. And no disrespect to Microsoft or CrowdStrike, but Microsoft is very technical, very sterile in how they communicate things. CrowdStrike, on the flip side, is very fancifare, very loud, very comic and fun. So we have to find that middle ground here of having technical where it matters and where it needs to be, but also adding in a little bit of flair and spice. And that way we can kind of craft our own. Hey, we’re right here in this gap. And spend, too. I mean, we have to get scrappy.

One of the things similar to what we did with Panther when I was there as a career director is we took these big blue Panther eyes and we bought ad space outside of Splunk’s office, which was one of our competitors. Millions and millions of dollars of advertising spend for them compared to us, which was this fraction. And we just put it there right across from their headquarters, just, hey, we’re here. We know you’re on our radar. We want to be on your radar. And just any customers going in and out, any process going out, it just things like that, you get kind of gorilla-y a little bit.

Debbie Forster MBE:
And that’s so many levels, because I just picture that, and it’s, you know, you’re not just staying on the radar of potential customers. You’re doing the head game with them going into the building, and you guys go around feeling really quite vindicated. That’s fantastic. But I mean, looking across everything you’re saying, what’s coming through for me is it is finding that voice and the voice that is different. I mean, you know, you had two really different talking about what CrowdStrike doing and what Microsoft is doing. And rather than like some companies do, how do I imitate that? How do I lash out against it? How do I undercut it? But finding that different voice that feels right for the product, for the company, but through that. And then again, you don’t often just hear people saying, getting your people to talk about interesting stuff.

Not the sales pitch, not the sales language, because that’s so often the bigger the company the more often you’re going to get corporate speak. This is the slogan they want us to trot out. This is the pitch, this is the pattern. Get your people out talking about interesting stuff and stuff like, I will now, Sean, I’m going to go to at least three different dinners where I’m going to talk about the USB sticks and the sandwiches. Right, so it’s that interesting bit. We love Story. We love something interesting that will then make us remember whatever that company, whatever it is you’re trying to sell.

Sean Ferguson:
Yeah, absolutely. And I was talking to Ken Weston from Lima Charlie and I worked with him in the past, too, and he’s just one of those ones that has the absolute greatest stories. And published, too, as the Official Cyber Stalker, where he used to put software onto school computers so when they were stolen, he could turn on the camera and literally take a picture of the people that took it. And yes, if I wanted to have him up on a show when he was at Panther, it was like, yeah, let’s talk about what we can do. But tell that story, open it up with it. Because it’s just, again, people are going to go talk about it and then you’re going to have that memory of, oh, yeah, I think he was from.

Debbie Forster MBE:
You were that guy, I think he was from that company that…

Sean Ferguson:
And people search for us then.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Okay, well, then, let me see. When you see an opportunity to be bolder right now, it could be, tell that story, that’s a little bit more out there. Whether it’s calling out competitive weaknesses, challenging the industry orthodoxy. Where do you draw the line? Because I think every company and every person in your position has to figure out, where is the line for you between safe positioning and we need to make noise to get heard?

Sean Ferguson:
I would say probably the line is. I would say find the line. To be honest with you, I don’t like getting offensive. I like kind of keeping politics out of it. But similar to what you’re talking about, it’s like, find that line and then lean into it and own it, and then start expanding that, okay, here’s our stopping point where we can be a little bit more safer, and then here’s where we can be a little bit more bolder. I say that in the sense of you have Wendy’s as a brand on Twitter or X just being obnoxious and it’s awesome because they were the first mover for that. And then you have other companies trying to copy them. And now when I see that, I immediately think, oh, that’s Wendy’s. You’re now pushing yourself to your competitors.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Because they now own that line. That particular line is their line.

Sean Ferguson:
So I’m a big proponent of first movers. You know, do something that no one else is doing, that’s in your niche, be a first mover there and then have your competitors copy you. When your competitors start copying you, then just make that small shift, just keep pivoting slowly and really just own that space to where you become that Wendy’s. To where when your competitor starts using the same copy or starts using the same visual language designs, they immediately think of you and not them.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Okay, let’s broaden it out a bit. You are in a space. Marketing seems to change. Not even by the day anymore, by the hour. What is your biggest marketing challenge that you think you face?

Sean Ferguson:
I would say KPIs. I mean, honest, we’re in a realm right now where it’s. I’d say KPIs and metrics. We’re in a realm right now where it’s a six to nine month sales cycle. So you really don’t get that feedback immediately. So you’re going to have to seek out that feedback. You’re going to have to talk to prospects, talk to customers, see what’s working. Look at metrics on the web. Is there more people landing on demo requests? Are people scrolling through the content? Are they actually reading engagement metrics on social to really understand, okay, is this working? And then, and then moving fast. I think that’s probably the biggest challenge I have and I’ve always had that to brand and design.

And being a former creative director, it’s hard to quantify is this working without having to go source and interview prospects or interview customers or even just trying to find metrics to track such as, okay, foot traffic. How many leads did we get at RSA? Okay, so people did come to our booth. Did it come to the booth from a messaging? Did they come to the booth because this big glowing sign, that’s probably the most difficult one. And then I’d say second most difficult challenge I’ve found in marketing is when to make that pivot. It’s almost like timing the market in the stock market. Like there’s never going to be the perfect time. But as long as you kind of find that area of okay, I moved just at the right time, or I moved just a little bit too late, but we’re still safe.

I think that’s where that’s probably where the challenge is. And that’s an everyday struggle as you said marketing changes daily. There’s going to be. We launch a campaign with comms two months ago and now we’re launching something completely different because we’ve had to pivot there.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Okay, and let me unpack that a bit because I think I know the answer. But let me be specific on that. In all of the things that you’re looking and all the ways to get it, have you decided that at this point in time there are metrics that tell you it’s working or not working? Are there certain things that now being your go to metrics?

Sean Ferguson:
Yeah, my go to metrics is really, I would say web traffic. Absolutely. Search is kind of making a resurgent. And I’d say search in the realm of you have ChatGPT, you have LLMs, are they picking up your information? Have they scraped your website? And we’ve actually had some, I would say, leads from ChatGPT, from these AIs. And the SEO person that’s on my team is absolutely amazing. It’s just constantly tracking, hey, this is making movement. Okay, so let’s pivot and start pushing out more of this content, more of this kind of thought leadership and really drive that.

Debbie Forster MBE:
I’m starting to hear that every now and then you’re getting people that are starting to realise it’s not just B2B, B2C, there’s B2BOT or B2AI and LLMs of that other piece. It’s not replacing the other two. But how are you feeding that beast in terms of trying to stay ahead of things?

Sean Ferguson:
Yep. And it’s constantly crawling. So it’s, the more content you put out, the more it’s crawling, the more information it can feed to the user. I don’t think it will replace Google. I think we’re probably about a decade out from that. But it is being used for validation. It’s being used to cheque your brand authority, it’s being used to see what you offer. And then, I mean, now it’s being used to feed CTAs to, you know, viewers. I think that’s really big. And then other things too. I mean, meltwater, I’m always really big on. Okay, new spikes. I’m a big proponent on engagement on social, because the more engagement is this, more people that are just interested in what you’re putting out there.

Debbie Forster MBE:
So it’s not always looking inwards, it’s looking outwards as well at those sort of metrics. Okay, but let me go back to the roots you were talking about. You’ve got a design background, you’re a visual communicator, you’ve won creative awards. But now in your role, you said you’ve got to be more data driven in that decision making. That can be tension. Have you ever had to scrap a creative campaign you loved because the data says it wasn’t working? How do you balance the art and science?

Sean Ferguson:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s always. You get kind of numb to it being from a designer background and career director background of that beautiful thing that you created, that beautiful logo you created and you send it to the client and they absolutely rip it apart and you end up with something that’s 10% of what you did. So I’m used to scrapping the campaigns. I think it’s just building up this acceptance of it, that this is the reality. And as you were saying too, marketing is changing every single day. So you have to just accept that reality of, oh, hey, this might just be completely changed in a week. I mean, honestly, I would just say it’s really just put your best work out every single day. And when you’re focusing on that 100%.

If I’m going to communicate something, if we have a new campaign with comms, it’s going to be just as good as that last one, even though that last one got scrapped.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Yeah. Okay. Gotta be ruthless, but creative but ruthless and ready to be ruthless where you have it. Look, we could, I could do this for another hour, but I know you’ve got to get back to your day job. I love hearing from guests. What’s on the horizon that’s capturing your attention? What is grabbing your eyeballs either in a good or a bad way at the moment?

Sean Ferguson:
In a good way, I would say I’m really excited about RSA in San Francisco. I like being in the midst of the competitors and also partners and customers too. Just seeing what the messaging is out there, it just kind of gets the juices going both creatively and on my comms end. And then my creative director on my team is going to be with me too. So we’re going to be able to get the nerd out a little bit on that. I would say probably geopolitically and economy wise. I think that’s a little bit of my concern. Obviously, personally too, I think professionally it’s going to change how we communicate, it’s going to change how we do campaigns. There’s going to be things that we can’t say and there’s going to be things that we should say.

Like, one of the things that we’re doing on our end is really just focusing on productivity and the cost of productivity, because that’s just what customers are thinking about right now. It’s what they’re talking about. And so we’re having to lean into that. And that goes in with geopolitical climate that we’re in right now.

Debbie Forster MBE:
And it’s a difficult path at the moment and a fast changing and fast moving one in that respect just as much as marketing. Yeah, absolutely. So good. Well, no not good, but I hear what you’re saying and it is. I don’t think anyone listening is going to say no, that doesn’t bother me at all. You can’t separate what’s happening out in the world from what you’re doing, your day job anymore. It is right there breathing down your neck every step of the way.

Sean Ferguson:
And everything’s at your fingertips on the Internet too. So, I mean, you have no choice but to acknowledge that and apply it.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Although every now and then my daughter talks to me about stop drinking from the fire hose of, you know, we have to know when to step back, look away, take a breath, et cetera, or it will overwhelm. Okay, but let’s say then when you’re stepping away, looking at things, I love to get my to do list filled with guests recommendations on whether it’s books or podcasts or something that you’re watching. Have you got anything you’d recommend to me?

Sean Ferguson:
Yeah, so I’ll recommend two books. One I’m reading right now is Don’t Do Business with Dicks by David Meltzer.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Catchy title. I’m going to remember that right along with the USB sticks and the sandwiches. Yes, tell me more.

Sean Ferguson:
It’s very much about avoiding. Not avoiding, but dealing with toxicity, staying positive at work, the soft skills, communication, conflict resolution and kind of just being a positive influence, which I think we just need more of. And it’s something that I would say internally, I struggle with a little bit, especially with adhd. My mind’s all over the place. There’s always, did I miss something? Could I do this? Can I not do that? And then the other book I’d say I always go back to is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Same realm. It’s just, I think before I got into corporate, that book prepared me way more than I could ever think of.

Debbie Forster MBE:
And that’s an old classic. I can remember my dad and I’m much older than you, Sean, so I can remember that. But it’s both of them. I think we always need to remember, and I think we need to help grow our teams to realise technical skill will only ever get us so far. Those, quote unquote soft skills, which were actually really hard, are really essential. And I think the more the workplace changes, the more those soft skills are absolutely essential. I couldn’t agree more.

Sean Ferguson:
Absolutely. And then, I mean, even with just looking at other people as human, one of my career directors in the past didn’t have one to ones he would apologise for taking PTO and I’m like, no, go spend time with your family, get a refresh. I did in product interim role at Panther, and we had three product designers. One that was on his way out, you know, one was burning out and then another one they were crying on the call with me because they didn’t feel like they were accomplishing their work. And it’s just like, take one week off, take two weeks off and you’re going to have the. I just feel like a little bit of the human element.

And I know, I think it’s coming back around, though, because I’m now starting to see a lot more soft skill requirements and jobs and some of the mentees that I mentor, as well as they’re applying, I just think we just need to bring the human element in and help our team, help other team members, even colleagues on the same level of just bringing their best work, bringing their best selves. Because then when you’re excited for work, I mean, you do happy accidents, you get new ideas. And I’m guilty of coming to work, pissed off a little bit too, because my life happening is just a constant daily thing of trying to just break myself out of it and let’s not make work harder than it needs to be. Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Oh, I like that. And I, you know, it’s just that in the midst of everything, that is everything right now, just holding onto our humanity and seeing others is essential. It’s survival. And I love the idea if you can help people be their whole selves, to work, to be happier, you get those happy accidents, you get the creativity. That’s where creativity flourishes, not under stress and under pressure. It’s in those spaces. Lots of wisdom here. Listen, Sean, I really appreciate you joining me today. I think it’s exactly what I needed to hear today. Thanks for joining.

Sean Ferguson:
Thanks so much for having me, Debbie.

Debbie Forster MBE:
And thank you to all of you for joining us on this episode of XTech. If you’d like to appear as a guest on the show, don’t waste a minute. Email us now at [email protected]. I’d like to thank our whole team of tech experts at Fox Agency for making this podcast possible. I’m Debbie Foerster and you’ve been listening to XTech.

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