Making AI work for people

Announcer:
Ready to explore the extraordinary world of tech? Welcome to the XTech Podcast where we connect you with the sharpest minds and leading voices in the global tech community. Join us as we cut through the complexity to give you a clear picture of the ideas, innovations, and insights that are shaping our future.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Hello, and welcome to XTech Podcast by Fox Agency. I’m your host Debbie Forster, MBE. I’m a tech portfolio consultant, and an advocate and campaigner for diversity, inclusion, and innovation in the tech industry. I’m delighted to be working with Fox Agency as the host for the XTech Podcast and as a curator for the XTech Community.

Today I am delighted to be joined by Sylvia Assumpção, the Global Marketing Director of The Access Group. Welcome, Sylvia.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Hi, Debbie.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Sylvia, I’ve got a chance to chat with you, but what I’d love to do is for the audience is get to know you as a human before we dive into the tech and the business at hand. One of the ways that I start unpacking things is to understand how do people get into tech, because for some it’s a really windy road. Others wake up and they have the laptop in hand. How about you, Sylvia? How did you find your way into tech?

Sylvia Assumpção:
For me, it has been … I’ve listened to a lot of the episodes on this podcast and I’ve noticed there is a pattern from how women get into tech, and for me it’s not very far off from everybody else.

Debbie Forster MBE:
The squiggly career.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah. I woke up one day and here I was already, with 10, 15 years of my career in tech. The long story is that all my way through university, I had worked during the day, studied during the night. My degree was all made through four years from, I don’t know, 6:00 to 10:00 at night. But even though I was working already on marketing and everything full-time, they needed me to sign a box, so internships. I had to do an internship. There was a tech company in my city that was looking for interns and joined. I stayed there for a few months. Then, yeah, I just like it, it was fun, but I was very early in my career. I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do, but I knew what I didn’t want to do, and what I didn’t want to do was stay in Brazil where I was originally from. I had already lived in a few different countries and I knew I wanted to go abroad.

So, a funny story is I was travelling with my grandmother in France. This company I did this internship for, they had a branch in France. Then I just thought, “I might just say hello, show my face there and if they ever have an opening, maybe they will think about me.” I asked my former boss to introduce me, and I went to the office to meet the GM of that office. Which again, my thought was just coming to say hello, I’m in Paris, nice day, I was wearing maybe shorts and a T-shirt. Very, very casual. And he took me to a room and started asking me questions which, in the middle of it I thought, “That sounds like an interview to me.” I was like, “Okay, I’ll just go with it.”

I continued to go through it and in the end, he was kind of saying they had an opening because their marketing manager was going to go on maternity leave. And said if I was interested, that was something they would be looking for because I already knew the company, I knew the product, so it would be an easy fit. I ended up getting that job, so I moved to France and I worked for that company for a few years. Moved with the same company to London, and the rest is history.

Debbie Forster MBE:
So Sylvia, in those early days, and travelling, and showing up in France at the company, was tech something that was just the periphery? Was it an annoyance and cramping the creativity of marketing? How did you feel about tech at that early stage?

Sylvia Assumpção:
For me, it was always something I was interested in. My strengths are, I really like the part of the numbers, the part of understanding how things work. That is about me, a big thing. I need to know how things work to be able to be the best that I can be. And so, the part of understanding our systems, our tools, our data was very important to me and I do enjoy … Most people think it’s a big issue when you go in Salesforce and have all these reports, and all that. I love it, I love it. I find it very therapeutic. I love drilling into-

Debbie Forster MBE:
Salesforce, I’m going to put an alert out. There’s your new sales technique of you off therapy and calmness to people.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, a new sales point for them. Exactly.

Debbie Forster MBE:
We’ll come back to data in a minute. But with over 10 years doing B2B SaaS marketing, you’ve watched the industry evolve and rather quickly. I think particularly in terms of consumer expectations, marketing approaches, what have you seen?

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah. I think the biggest thing I’ve seen so far is there’s a bigger point for me is standards. I think customers and consumers have much higher standards of marketing from now than what it was when I started. The expectations that things need to be done and delivered flawless, but most importantly quick. And I see that as myself. If I sign up for a trial or anything, I want the email in my inbox working right now, not in two minutes. You know when you have these confirmation numbers of things? I go, “Again, again, again, again,” because I cannot wait 30 seconds for it to arrive in my inbox.

So I think that for me is a big thing, of people really wanted everything quickly and very well done. So I think the personalization, the making sure things are relevant to them, they understand a little bit more of what is behind the billboards they see, they get it. I think that for me is what I’ve seen. Which is great for us that work in marketing. We’re happy to step up our game, really.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Yeah. That period of COVID, which already seems a million years ago and just yesterday, but that seemed to suddenly bring together what you were saying. That companies had to keep up with … There used to be, “Here are the expectations of B2C, here are the expectations of B2B.” And B2B, they’re more patient. Then we realize, well, actually, our consumer is our business client and they bring those expectations.

Those two things. All those things we used to have to really, really get absolutely right on UX for B2C is now as essential to our clients when we’re talking B2B because they are still the C. The B has a tiny C in that. Those companies that can work with their marketing people to understand that, of getting the UX for your B2B clients absolutely right I think is absolutely essential.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I do think that COVID time … I think COVID changed a lot of things in terms of how we work and how we position things, and even how we do marketing. But I do think that blend of B2B and B2C was emphasized during COVID. There was a time there was a lot of talks about, what was it, B2H, to humans. Instead of it’s no more C or B, it was humans.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Ah! I’ve not heard that, but that’s super because it is what happens essentially.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Whatever the other letters, there is the H.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
There is that human at the other side.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, exactly.

Debbie Forster MBE:
I think COVID, because we were all at home and there was the great blurring. Who knows when work stops and home begins?

Sylvia Assumpção:
That’s it, yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
The same way, when do we stop being clients and customer, and all of that? It’s human.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
That’s super. That’s a great takeaway to anyone is actually this is about B-2-human and how are we getting that right? Because I’d go further to say even the human is the internal customer, our employees and the employee experience.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
If they’re going to be their best, we get that … I’m quoting you on that one, Sylvia. I don’t know who else said it and who else told you. I’m going to start talking about B2H and say that “Sylvia taught me that.”

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, okay. Well, I’ll take it.

Debbie Forster MBE:
In doing some of my cyber-stalking of you online, I noticed that you talked about “data is marketing’s best ally.” Now in the SaaS world where everything is measurable, how do you balance the data-driven insights with creative marketing solutions?

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, that is very interesting. I saw that in practice on a few roles that I had because my strongest background in my career has mostly been built on demand gen. Where data is very important and we’re working on it all the time. But at some point, I took a role to oversee brand locally. And part of my role was actually … The reason why I got that job was to bring that experience to brand. Because I think that, one, there is this assumption that brand is something completely unquantifiable, that you can’t really know how much. We just put the money in, then pray, we hope for the best. But the point was to bring that into the whole creative space, that was why I was asked to do that job. And it worked, in terms of I did bring that to the creatives that I was working with.

But I also learned that most importantly was to also get the buy-in from the senior leadership, that was important. Because when you go talk to a CFO, you need budget because brand is expensive. You need budget to do that. That type of people, they need to see numbers because that’s what they work on every day.

I think where I got the balance where I would start with data and anything I can quantify. If there was anything I can turn intangible to tangible, I would. Obviously, there’s a lot of variables in indirect numbers because you can’t say, “Oh, does this billboard work well? We don’t know.” Well, if there’s a QR code we can, but sometimes that’s not the right experience. What I could do, for example is by the time that billboard was there on that location, did we get more traffic? Did we get more volume of people looking for our product? Did we get more search for our product? So, I think anything that could point into that direction that was valuable, I would, and that would help my case and to getting people onboard.

So, one is start with the numbers. That will give you credibility and opportunity to be creative. Because that is the other piece that I think I love is getting creative to solve problems. When I talk creativity, for me it’s a different type of creativity. I think I can be very creative on how to solve issues, very resourceful. I think that is for me is you create the opportunity and the gap with the data, and then you fill in with creativity to bridge that gap.

Debbie Forster MBE:
It’s interesting what you’re saying and I’ve heard this coming through a lot. Data is becoming everything now, where we used to day everything is digital. But beneath that, that common language is the data. And I like the way you’ve cut through on the idea even, because we can make creativity, being creative very airy-fairy. But if it is data-driven, and creative is to create, is to make, and if it’s solutions, it’s fixing problems, it’s solving problems, you then start having that shared language. That the CFO, the the CTO, that the CMO can then have the right conversation because they have that shared language. Then we’d say, and we’ll talk a minute about AI, of course then, the more you understand that bit about data, the smarter you get through that.

Now I think about The Access Group. You’ve got EMEA expansion experience and you’ve got the experience of Access Group’s global reach. How is AI changing that regional versus global marketing equation? Are you seeing AI make it easier or not?

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yes. This is a very interesting question and I know it’s been talked about a lot, about AI. Actually, I did a presentation about AI in marketing last week, so it’s very fresh in my mind.

For context, Access is a huge company, we have a lot of different divisions. The division I work on is a small business division, so we serve all small businesses and we have solutions for them. So there’s a few interesting things here. One is we talked about the B2B and B2C blend on the small business side, that’s one thing.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Huge. Yeah, it is everything.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Because the smaller the company is, the more they’re likely to behave as a consumer. There is that. One is on how you position in terms of it’s not B2B, it’s B2C, and how AI integrates to it. One thing is that The Access Group has been on the forefront of AI. I have never seen a company work like this before in terms of we’re going to be the first and we’re going to be the best, and this is the new thing and I believe it is. It’s unbelievable. I’m very excited about it.

One thing that I think it solves for … I’m going to go back to your question, I’m not going away from it.

Debbie Forster MBE:
No, you go anywhere. I’m waiting to here and I know you come back to me, so you just keep going. I’m right there with you.

Sylvia Assumpção:
The thing with before, with my previous roles, it was very much, “Here is EMEA, here is North America,” and all of that. With The Access Group, the main focus are UK, APAC, so a lot of English-speaking type of countries. Which is much easier, because culturally they are much more aligned than when you go through a lot of different countries in Europe, so that’s easier. AI definitely solve for what was the pain of my life, was the Ss and the Zs in texts, that is one. Very easy to solve with AI, helped me out with that. That’s very good.

But I think it also helps in terms of being able to personalize and scale. Because that was a big issue for me and a big challenge when I was marketing for different countries like France, Germany, Spain. The personalization was very, very difficult because you would have to get people in translating and making sense that that would actually land in the customers. That was very tricky. With AI, you’re able to apply that in a much bigger scale. I think it’s a game-changer in how we work as a business and how we interact with other businesses.

Yeah, I definitely see that as a big, big change for us, but for the best. I’m excited about it.

Debbie Forster MBE:
I think that’s a great way of pitching in because a lot of times in tech, we’re hitting that nervousness around AI adoption. But it’s understanding where the secret sauce is, or as I learned in Spain to say, the chilli in the recipe.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
That customization, personalization at scale, that’s a game-changer when we’re talking about marketing. That is the gateway into getting people to see how and where that works.

You’ve mentioned how far ahead of the game Access Group is. You recently launched Access Evo, your AI solution. Now, how do you position the AI capabilities in that increasingly crowded market, where every software can claim to have AI? How is it different, beyond what we’ve just said?

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah. Yes, it is interesting because I think … I did a talk about AI last week, but at the same time I cannot hear about AI anymore because everything is AI.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Yeah.

Sylvia Assumpção:
We all go through these phases. Every year, there’s a different topic. But I do think this one is different. I do think AI, it’s not just a buzzword of the year, and next week is going to be this different thing. Because it’s not only in marketing, it’s not something that Gartner or Forrester decided that, “This is what we’re going to talk about this year.” I don’t think that’s it. I do think it’s changing us as a society in how we work and how the world works.

So, to say that, yes, all companies are having to, that is one thing, they are having to talk about it. Otherwise, they’re not relevant. I think with Evo and Access Evo it’s different because that’s not what it is. It’s really there is a deep belief that that is the future. This is the future and we’re really going to make this the best experience for our customer.

I think one of the things that made it different is this is not about AI, this is not about the features. This is how they experience this better. This is why this is going to be working. It’s not about just talking about AI, it’s talking about why this is going to make your life better. This is the essence of marketing right, it’s not talking about product or features, it’s talking about the pain points and what it solves. It’s just a simple thing, but I do think a lot of companies are failing, and just focusing on talking about the buzzword that is out there.

I also think that there is, when I talked to you about personalization at scale, it’s kind of from that angle in terms of making sure the differentiation is there. Making sure that there is cross-system intelligence. There is making sure that there is a contextual understanding, and that the AI knows the business context, not just justification why we’re adding a certain feature in the tool.

The last thing is really about ROI, because in the end of the day, that’s all businesses care about. They don’t care how it gets done, I just want it to be better and I just want everything to be improved.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Bottom line. If you haven’t gotten to the bottom line, you’re not there.

Sylvia Assumpção:
That’s it, yeah. I think that’s what we mostly focus on. I think the tagline is “it’s not magic, it’s Evo.” Which is just to show that, no, it’s not just out of nowhere, this is what the future looks like. This is why you should do this. I think that it’s positioning as AI that works, and not just AI that is just there for, yes, you have AI checkbox. It’s really emphasizing the practical utility over just the technical elements of it.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Someone outside listening to what you’re saying, Sylvia, the other thing I would say is interesting and I think it’s a key point, and you touched on it. You talked about all companies out there, sometimes in a blind panic of if we’re not saying AI, we’re not relevant. Or God, just make sure every fifth word is AI.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yes.

Debbie Forster MBE:
You talked about a belief.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
I think there is something, and it’s the absolutely knowing the why. This is what I’d think I’d ask our listeners. In your company, have you bottomed out the deep why that means, as an organization, you believe it? I think that’s what’s cutting through or not cutting through when we’re doing our sales cycles, et cetera is everybody can smell the buzzword bingo when it’s being sold to them. If organizations at an individual level really have bought into the why and believe, that belief is then going to be what you’re saying. You’re really understanding how AI’s at the heart of and building outwards, not bolting it on because you have to, and it doesn’t have to stay on long because at some stage that’s going to fall off and we’ll put the next buzzword on there.

That’s really powerful. And I think it’s something for us as companies, as I’ve been reading the surveys around that, of companies when you talk internally how many actually believe it’s good and how many are just saying it. And the cynicism is growing in of, “Our company has no idea why they’re doing AI, or that we’re just saying it.” That’s how things break. Whereas what you talk about, if there’s that belief through, then people are wanting to make it work the right way, the right context, and it will ultimately hit the bottom line.

So, how do you then balance the AI-powered marketing automation with the human touch? Because in complex B2B sales cycles, when things are too perfect and automated, we smell that, too. We want, and I think a lot of people on the show have talked about, I think are craving for the human, for the authentic, which is human, is going to grow not disappear as AI takes off. How do you think you need to balance that?

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, that is a very interesting one. I think that if you asked me six months ago, I might have a different answer because the truth is that this is all new. We are all learning with it and we are all experiment … Not all, but the ones that are-

Debbie Forster MBE:
Most of us, let’s be honest here.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
If we talk about it, I have yet to get anyone that, over a drink goes, “Yeah, we’ve got it figured out.” Everybody says, “Yeah, I don’t know. We’re still in full-scale experimentation.”

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, exactly. We’re all experimenting with it. But I have caught myself thinking about this because as consumers we, a lot of the times, don’t want to talk to a person. I don’t want to talk to anyone, I just want to get this resolved.

Debbie Forster MBE:
I don’t need to people.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yes.

Debbie Forster MBE:
There are a lot of things of I don’t need to people, I need to get done.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Then a lot of the times, we do absolutely not want to talk to a bot, we want to talk to a person. So, I think this is, humans, we’re complex beings. A lot of wants and needs.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Many of which are highly contradictory.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Exactly, exactly. How do you work that in the marketing side? The way we’re looking at it is that, in truth, a lot of our marketing has already been not talking to a human because you’re automating things, and you’re just going and hoping that that message is relevant for that person as much as possible. I think AI helps that. It only improves that. Whatever you are doing that was automated, AI is going to improve it because of that personalization at scale that I talked about. That part, I think that is covered.

But it’s when I think there needs to be a much deeper understanding of your customer journey from what you had before to now in terms of all of the touch points you have with that customer. Where does the automation and AI adds value, and when it reduces value? I think there will need to be a really deep understanding of that, and where do you want to have the human interaction there in a way that also is the most efficient as possible.

So I do think it’s adding another variable to the journey. It’s not only you’re going to see it, okay, this is where marketing owns the lead, this where sale owns the lead. Where does AI own the lead? I think that is definitely going to be part of the conversation now. But I do think that it is a lot of experimentation right now. But as a rule of thumb, I do think that whatever automation was done, AI is much better because it automates better, it personalizes better.

Debbie Forster MBE:
And as you say, it’s B-2-human. Whether we’re talking our internal stakeholders, whether we’re talking to clients, whether we’re talking to customers, all the other little letters. When really trying to get a deep understanding, when do we not want to or need a human and accept that that’s okay?

Sylvia Assumpção:
Exactly, yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Then understand, when do we want or need the human? Woe betide the company that tries to put the bot there, because that’s where the friction’s going to come. It’s not that we’re decreasing friction and increasing our sales cycles. That’s where people opt out. That’s where people put the unsubscribe if we do that.

You’ve given me something. That’ll be over the coffee this morning and probably over a drink later, of thinking about understanding, because that’s where the experimentation is. Because I think as humans, we’re also understanding that.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, that’s it. Right.

Debbie Forster MBE:
I’m now finding in my encounters those moments when I think, “Oh, thank God, I don’t have to wait on a helpline or something.” I can just get a bot, ask the question, get it done. Get in, get out, thank you. Box ticked, I can move on to my next task. Other times, if I get a bot, I’m out.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
This is I don’t want automation, I need that. Okay, all right. Thinking then bigger, as we come to the end, I like to let people look at the horizon beyond just the day job. What’s on the horizon that interests you?

Sylvia Assumpção:
I know that it’s really a cliché, but I do think it’s for me right now is AI. I’m really deeply involved. I’m really excited. I genuinely am excited. I think this is a time in the world and in business, and all of it … You know when things came, people were doing on paper, and then you have systems. I do think it’s one of these moments now. I really don’t believe it’s just another thing. I do think this is a biggie now. The people that are going to differentiate themselves in the market and in business and everything is the ones that operate this on the maximum level and understand it. And so I think this, I’m excited about.

It’s so endless, there’s so much. When I talked about creativity and creativity of solving problems, because I do think that lines up really well with what I like to do. So I think that that, for me, is really, really exciting. I wish I could have more aspirational thing to say, but that’s what I’m excited about right now.

Debbie Forster MBE:
But I think it is, Sylvia. It’s interesting. I’ve been doing this for a few years now and I now, when we talk about the horizon, there is nobody that isn’t doing some flavor of AI because it’s everything. It is the horizon and it’s where we choose.

But you’re touching on something that’s just been coming up in the last few episodes. I think, for a lot of us for the first time, it’s our jobs that are going to get disrupted. This is not-

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yes, right.

Debbie Forster MBE:
This is not manual labor is going to have … No, this is coming for us.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
But I think the people who are going to survive and thrive are not the ones who are panicking, but the ones who are actually saying, “This is exciting.” Because again, it goes back to understanding what can AI do in my job? It’s going to vanish and if I don’t get ahead of it, but then where is my value add? Where do they need me as human to do those things? And how that interplay … If you go back to what you said earlier at the very start, you liked solving problems. That’s where the creativity goes of all the data says it’s here, it’s not going anywhere, and it’s going to continue to. I think the disruption and change is going to accelerate, not go away. Those of us who can see that and say, “Cool. Let’s figure out.”

I love one of the takeaways throughout the thread for you, for this podcast with you is, where is the human bit? Where do we absolutely need the human bit, and where do we just let go and let it automate? Because that’s where the magic happens. I know we’re supposed to say it’s not magic, it’s AI.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
But it’s kind of magical it can do this.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah. It’s Evo.

Debbie Forster MBE:
See? Now you can say from your brand perspective, you dropped the slogan in as well. It’s a win-win situation. AI probably couldn’t have figured out how do drop that in in that way.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah. You see? You still need us for something. I do think the way I’m seeing it more and more is that one thing we have to remember is that we control the machine. We have the power to control it and to teach it. A lot of the times, I’m thinking about it’s only be as good as we are. Because I can do all the automation, but I need to tell them. Them, I already see it as a person.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Yeah, yeah.

Sylvia Assumpção:
I need to tell AI exactly what they need to know. I need to be able to teach it, I need to be able to onboard it, and build all of that around it. Because otherwise, it’s not going to be as good. Again, it can be a step further as there is already starting of, “This AI is better than this one.” I think that is going to be the humans behind it. Of how you teach and how you drop that knowledge in is going to be a big one.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Probably before you were born, don’t tell me that, it would break my heart. But earliest days of tech used to talk about garbage in, garbage out. It’s always true.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
It’s just we’re feeding in more and more. It’s what are we feeding it? We still have that control, what are we feeding it.

I like what you’re saying as well. We talk about AI too often as if it is one thing, but there are different brands, there are different AIs. I won’t, for the purposes of the show, say which one it is, but I know my go-to on AI because I like what they’re feeding it, I like how they’re shaping that.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Okay. Then, always last but not least, my question, but this helps fill up my to-do list in terms of reading, and learning, and doing things. Sylvia, what are you reading, or watching, or listening to that you’ve found valuable?

Sylvia Assumpção:
As a rule, I like to watch a lot of things that are not very valuable because I like to turn off my brain and just don’t have to think about anything.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Okay, thank god. Me, too. Junk food for the brain.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster MBE:
I do need some junk food for my brain.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Love it, love it. I thought maybe I’ll think about something that is not that. I thought about one of the books that I found very, very valuable that I actually am going to read again. It’s called Never Split the Difference. Have you heard of it?

Debbie Forster MBE:
No.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Honestly, one of these books that are really, really unbelievable. It’s about negotiation tactics. The guy that wrote it, he’s American. Now I’m not sure if he was CIA or FBI, but regardless, he was responsible for hostile negotiations. High pressure environment, he was the lead of hostile negotiations in the world. Through the book, he teaches negotiation tactics.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Oh.

Sylvia Assumpção:
I have used them. I remember this, I was very proud of myself. I’ve used one of the tactics in a hotel, there was an issue with the hotel room, and I got what I wanted in the end. I thought, “That’s valuable, I got what I wanted.”

Debbie Forster MBE:
Wow.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah. The thing what I liked about this book, it’s not very large. It’s a very small size, actually. But it’s written in a way that is interesting. It’s not like, “In chapter one,” and you can’t just be bothered with it. No, it’s really well written, it’s real stories. It’s really, really good.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Oh, excellent.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, it’s great.

Debbie Forster MBE:
All right, well, that’s on my download list when we finish the podcast.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah. here you go.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Listen, thank you so much, Sylvia, for being here today. I really enjoyed our chat.

Sylvia Assumpção:
Yeah, I really enjoyed it, too. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Debbie Forster MBE:
Thank you to all of you for joining us on this episode of XTech. If you’d like to appear as a guest on the show, don’t waste a minute. Email us now at [email protected]. I’d like to thank our whole team of tech experts at Fox Agency for making this podcast possible. I’m Debbie Forster, and you’ve been listening to XTech.

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