Breaking sound barriers
Reinventing the loudspeaker is one thing. Testing it out at a U2 gig in Las Vegas is another. Natalia Szczepanczyk of startup Holoplot explains how their unique approach to loudspeaker design is revolutionising audio.
“We can shape how you want sound to exist in a space… It’s really a case of having to unlearn what you thought you knew.”
Reinventing the loudspeaker is one thing. Testing it out at a U2 gig in The Sphere in Vegas is another.
Natalia Szczepanczyk of Holoplot talks with Debbie Forster MBE about how their groundbreaking firm managed to change how we think about sound in large spaces, and what other startups can learn from their meteoric rise and approach to innovation.
Transcript:
Announcer:
Ready to explore the extraordinary world of tech? Welcome to the XTech Podcast, where we connect you with the sharpest minds and leading voices in the global tech community. Join us as we cut through the complexity to give you a clear picture of the ideas, innovations, and insight that are shaping our future.
Debbie Forster MBE:
Hello and welcome to the XTech Podcast by Fox Agency. I’m your host, Debbie Forster MBE. I’m the CEO at the Tech Talent Charter, and an advocate and campaigner for diversity, inclusion and innovation in the tech industry.
I’m delighted to be working with Fox Agency as the host of the XTech Podcast and as a curator for the Xtech community. Today, I’m very excited. I’m joined today by Natalia Szczepanczyk. She’s the segment manager for immersive and experiential audio applications for a company called Holoplot. Natalia, it’s lovely to have you here today.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Hi, Debbie. Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Debbie Forster MBE:
So, for the audience and myself, we’d love to get to know you as a living, breathing human before we dive into the excitement of the tech. Now, some of my guests were born with the laptop in hand. Others have wandered around to find themselves in tech. What about you? How did you find yourself in tech?
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Interesting. I think it’s always a bit of an interesting story for women, and I hope it’s a bit better these days, but still, I would say when I was growing up, it was not really a girly thing and I kind of had to find my way in. I studied acoustics. I was the only female student in my year, and I think it’s one of these things that continues probably to this day, that there’s only one female in that course, unfortunately. So obviously there’s a lot of work to be done. But I think for me, acoustics, audio technology kind of somehow has always been there at home. My dad was building loudspeakers and guitars, so in a way, I was surrounded by it. So it was inevitable that I would end up in it somehow.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And it’s lovely to think about as well, because back when your father was doing it, probably we wouldn’t have described it as tech. It’s the world that has moved into an area you were born into, rather than you moving towards it.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Absolutely, and I think I love what you just raised. What is tech in the first place? What is technology? So it could be a very broad spectrum of things that we actually consider here under this term, but I would say yes, of course, it has to be considered based on the times, and it’s a huge area, a huge field. So yeah, simple things could be tech, like tools we use in the kitchen could be tech, right? So it is very, very broad. Yeah.
Debbie Forster MBE:
Absolutely. And I think what’s interesting for me is the idea, and even since the first time you and I spoke, I’ve been now fascinated in thinking about acoustics and audio and where tech is in that. So tell me then first, what is Holoplot? What does it do? And your job title is quite a mouthful. So tell me about the company, how you found it, how’d you found your way to Holoplot, and then tell me what your job entails.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Sure. So Holoplot, I think I like to sort of start with at face value. We are a loudspeaker company, but there is a lot more to it. So, the technology that we actually have developed and are working with allows you to steer sound and kind of use sound in ways that was not really possible in the past. So, I do like to give the analogy of light and when you think about the beam of light and beams of light, we are kind of used to thinking about, I flash a torch and I illuminate certain area or somebody. In a theatre also, we would illuminate a certain actor on stage but not the other. You have a laser pointer. All these things that with sound, we kind of are talking about the light bulb, we just switch it on. We have some level of control, but really it’s just kind of more on and off. I’m simplifying things drastically…
Debbie Forster MBE:
And I appreciate that. The audience that don’t know the ins and outs of it, you’re making that really accessible. Thanks.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
It’s just to start thinking maybe in these terms. So, of course the technology has moved on in terms of the loudspeaker technology that we have available, say, prior to Holoplot. And there is some level of control, but we take it to completely another level. So we have a way to really just send some information, a voice recording, or even a live feed of someone on stage to one single person in the audience if they happen to speak a different language. So, it’s just a completely new way of thinking about sound and playing with it, working with it. And I was quite lucky that I actually started with the company about five years ago. I came from a field of acoustic engineering, acoustic consultancy. So I worked in quite a few companies, from very large scale noise pollution projects, through building design and making sure that classrooms are quiet and so on, to concert hall design. So really like a full spectrum.
And I was also lucky as a student to have worked for a loudspeaker company already in Finland, called Genelec. And that was such an important experience for me and I really wanted to go back to that. So Holoplot kind of marries the elements of architectural acoustics, how humans interact with sound, how the loudspeaker interacts with the venue or not, how it doesn’t interact with the venue, ’cause that’s what’s important to us as well. We kind of minimise that interaction, which allows us to really be in spaces that are very difficult otherwise. So think very large cathedrals or train stations, these places are horrible to be in and understand what’s being said to us, and we can really start working with these things now and make them a lot more pleasant and calm and understandable, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s kind of all these different elements kind of come together at this job. I love it.
Debbie Forster MBE:
I can tell. And really, I think the more we unpack and think about what you do, you’re dealing with the whole spectrum of sound, of sound as noise, something to be cut through, to be worked around, but then also the beauty of sound and how to take it places. So amazing to have. In the time that you’ve been there, what were some of the big barriers you had to overcome and how did you do that?
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
It’s very difficult to break into a market as a speaker manufacturer, I think. A lot of other manufacturers have been around for many, many years.
We are a new company, a lot of young people, a lot of people who are not traditionally coming from the audio technology field, which I actually find very interesting. It has always been our strength. We had people joining from very various fields and they could apply the best of themselves to help us propel us forward.
Debbie Forster MBE:
But I think what you say I hear again and again, great tech comes from great people. And yes, sometimes that is about finding somebody who has that very specific tech skillset, but equally, and yes, it’s absolutely true, it’s the lifeblood of a startup. But I think more and more in tech we’re realising, as much as we need some deep tech skill, we need problem solvers. This is not just what you know, we are looking for people who can take what they know in different areas, can learn different ways.
And I think more and more, as leaders in tech, people have to be at the heart of what we do. And I’m hearing this again from every sector within tech, what breaks them, what propels them to the next level, is about finding the right people. And then, as I’m hearing in your voice, Natalia, it’s inspiring them. It’s freeing them up and letting them do, as you say, bending physics in completely different ways.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Absolutely. Sometimes it’s also hard for those people because, of course, you join a new company and you’re being presented, or actually not even being presented, you’re being thrown into something and you have to kind of figure out what the problem is in the first place. So, it’s really a huge shout-out to almost every single person here in Holoplot for actually having exactly that start.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And I’m hearing more and more tech companies starting to look at hiring for those qualities and potential, rather than the skill. So stamina, problem solving, ability to find solutions on their own, is really powerful. Now, I love talking to all of my guests, but there’s very seldom that I get to go rock and roll, Natalia. One of the things we get to talk about when we talk about what Holoplot does is some rock and roll, so can you talk to me?
Some of the audience may or may not have heard of the Sphere in Las Vegas. If you haven’t, start Googling now. There’s some great visuals, as well as sound. But Natalia, talk to me about what you did with working with U2 in Las Vegas for the Sphere, because the outcome, I was really impressed, I remember hearing about it, another thing in Las Vegas, but once they started coming out, the critics, the critics who would’ve gone in to be very, very sceptical about, “This is just a big hot mess,” are ecstatic about what you were able to achieve there. Tell me about it.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Yeah, I hear you ask me the question, I’m actually getting excited myself. It’s really just another level of a project. From acoustic perspective, first of all, it’s a spherical building, as per the name, and this would be normally the worst nightmare of any acoustician. If you hear, “I want amplified sound in a spherical dome,” we would just shake our heads and say, “Please go somewhere. I don’t want to work on this,” quite frankly.
So that alone already, that’s kind of a first, let’s say, challenge, huge challenge to kind of think about. Then to think that this will accommodate 20,000, close to 20,000 people. That’s sort of another level. There are things, more technical details, such as the humidity in Las Vegas and the humidity in the building, which actually affects this propagation of sound drastically. Something that no one really wants to think about, as you’d never think about, but it really affected significantly. So, there were a lot of, again, physics here against us.
One super important thing, is all the loudspeakers are hidden behind the LED screen. So as an audience member, you’ll actually not see a single speaker, but sound will be coming from all around you. So, having all these elements and having U2 open Sphere was just incredible feeling for us, because we knew that they were the perfect people for it and they were the perfect testament that what we’ve worked on for so long and so hard works and can really elevate that experience of going to a rock concert.
Yeah, the sensation is incredible, to really hear Bono’s voice as if he’s really just singing to you. Meanwhile, you’re surrounded by 20,000 people. That’s just a remarkable achievement from all sorts of other trades as well there. But we are super happy with the result, of course.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And what was the toughest bit of that? Because I think if people haven’t looked, have a look online. So as you said, it’s a nightmare venue because it’s spherical, it’s 20,000 people, I hadn’t thought about, and it’s in Las Vegas. But then it’s filled with screens and so your sound behind the screens to create that virtual reality sense of things in the 360.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Absolutely.
Debbie Forster MBE:
What kept you up the most in trying to prepare for that?
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
I think all the elements really put together, and it’s one of these things that you cannot really test it ahead of time. So the building was being built, we were developing our tech. When I started, we didn’t have a product, quite frankly, we were working on the development, we had the alpha version, which we actually just recently shared a very interesting image on our social media of what that alpha version looked like. It was just a wooden box with a lot of cables sticking out of it.
So, just to know how far this whole project has come, both in terms of the building development and our speaker development, is really… I get almost emotional thinking about where we were then and what we’ve achieved with it now. But indeed, you’re right, in terms of the visuals, the visuals are really covering a peripheral vision, so you can have a full sense of immersion. And sound also is located really that the loudspeakers are.
Allocated pretty much around you, so all around behind the screen. So, there’s a main sound obviously coming from in front of you, but there are 28 arrays located around the LED screen, around the Sphere, allowing for pretty much localization to any point. So anywhere you can point with your hand on the screen, there could be sound coming from there. So, on that scale, it’s a groundbreaking project. Absolutely. Yeah. Sounds amazing.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And it’s ultimately a project that only could be done with tech, this would’ve been impossible in the old world of speakers and acoustics.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Absolutely.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And I, in listening to, first of all, the artists involved, for U2, they were ecstatic. It’s exactly what they wanted. And I think what was powerful, is to think about, for people who were there, stadium-sized, this is a huge crowd, but it did have that intimacy of a tiny venue. So, fantastic. And would love to see, and I hear that they’re starting to think about different directions with filmmaking and all of that. But I don’t think people had realised you were doing a startup’s perfect dream and perfect nightmare because this is not a place you easily pivot. You can’t easily pivot and hack a solution in front of 20,000 people. And to be the first in that venue to do it, you had no one’s mistakes to learn from. So okay, I can see what you said about stamina and problem solving.
But it’s not just rock and roll. The other thing that’s really powerful is the way in which you’re looking at taking the product into areas that could make, for example, a nobody not rock and roll person like me, feel the benefit. Talk to me about some of the other usage cases you’re looking at.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Yeah, the product is very versatile in a sense that you can shape how you want the sound to essentially exist in the space. So, the reason it works in Sphere is, so again, it would be normally a nightmare of a lot of reflections and so on. If we had a normal, let’s say light bulb, I am going back to my analogy here, emanating the energy in all directions, it would just come back to the centre and the reflections would be causing quite a bit of acoustic mess, let’s just call it like that. Not a technical term, by the way.
And with what we do, we can actually beam, we can design where the sound will be placed. So we can actually very precisely say, “I want this part of the audience to hear the guitar and I want this part of the audience right now to hear the vocalist,” for example. But most importantly, all this sound will always be focused on the audience only. So we’re not sending any unnecessary acoustic energy into the rest of the venue. And that’s what allows for this actually to work in the first place.
So the same technology, the control over sound that we have, we can apply in so many different applications. So actually, I like what you said in the very beginning, there’s a lot of fun stuff, but there’s a lot of very functional stuff. So I very much agree with that, and I very often talk about Holoplot solving the very functional problems, but also opening a very new set of fun tools that we can now just bring to the audience.
So, from the functional stuff, when you think about, again, bringing back to the idea of a cathedral, let’s say, you want to have an amplified voice within a cathedral, normally this is causing quite a lot of reflections. It’s very difficult to understand what is being said.
So what we do, instead of sending the signal in the whole building at the same time, we again just target the areas where people are actually present. And the sound, it’s kind of when you think about it that way, it’s very efficient. So we’re not losing energy in all the directions, we’re very much very intelligently sending it where it’s needed. That means it’s very efficient, which means that over a long distance, it doesn’t drop level.
So everyone, whether you’re standing at the very front or at the very back, you’re hearing the same level, the same content, which is very important. And that means we really includes everybody within the audience. The fact that we have so much control.
It also, again, allows us to, actually, the word include is really the best word here, because we share the sound kind of equitably. If there is a part of the audience that is maybe under the balcony, typically these I areas are very difficult to deliver sound to appropriately, but we can target them with a separate audio beam. So, I’m talking about the audio beams, again, this is how we actually call it within Holoplot. Think of this as if it was a light beam. It’s a similar thing. I want to illuminate a certain area and I can be very precise with how I do it.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And you mentioned earlier, because this could be in an education environment or a business meeting, even, large scale conferences, this might not be a guitar and a vocal, this could be different languages. So this is no more walking around with the funny little earphones trying to hear the simultaneous translation.
But another application you mentioned before that I’m fascinated because I’ve been having to catch a lot of trains lately, is thinking about things like transport, train stations. And I’ve been on those platforms where everyone’s looking blankly at each other trying to figure out what that loud noise was because it means whether you’re on the right platform, but you could change that.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Yeah, it’s actually really hard to describe how much improvement you would get by using technology like ours, as opposed to the kind of more traditional technology. So, it really gives you, not only the real full intelligibility of sound, it also really sounds like it’s very close to you. So it really feels a lot more, well, I don’t want to say natural because you don’t experience that in nature that way, but it feels more natural in a sense that it sounds more like there is a person standing in front of you talking at a normal speaking level, rather than having to really project the sound a lot louder and being reverberating the whole space and so on. So this is extremely, extremely useful in these applications, for sure.
Debbie Forster MBE:
But if we are thinking about applications like train stations or airports or big conferences, is cost a barrier? We don’t all have the same sort of money that Las Vegas and U2 have to pour into these sound systems. Is sound a barrier for using Holoplot in that way?
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
It’s definitely a premium product. So that has to be said, the X1 product, which we have right now on the market. However, first of all, we’re working on the X2 system, which is a lot more accessible from that perspective. However, what I would like to maybe mention as well, is all the things that maybe affected the total cost of your installation. So, you would have to think about the acoustic absorption that you need to add to your space normally. You’d have to think about all the different installation points. So instead of one single speaker array, you may not need five or six or so, just to make sure that the sound keeps being intelligible across the platform, for example. So there are a few factors that affect it. And I would say that overall, it’s not just the cost of the hardware itself that affects actually the end result. So yeah, there are many considerations there to take into account.
Debbie Forster MBE:
So this is also about learning how to educate your customer, isn’t it? Because this is a totally different way. And I think quite often that is a challenge we have in tech, is changing mindsets about how to deploy different kinds of technology to really make use of it as a technology.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Absolutely, and I think we at Holoplot are quite familiar with… Each of us has joined the company at some point and each of us has been sceptical before joining. Until you really hear it, it’s very much a case of having to, I think it’s fair to say, having to unlearn certain things that you knew about sound. I’ve been through that process myself, where I was very, very sceptical to the first person who introduced me to Holoplot, saying that, “I’ve worked in acoustic so many years, there’s no way this works,” and so on.
So it was quite funny, actually, my friend actually, Michael Hlatky, who’s the product owner for X1, for the product which is in the Sphere, and I just remember his face when he saw me hear the system for the first time. He was just laughing very loud like he always does. So, it’s definitely the process of sometimes letting go of what you’ve learned all your life and rethinking it. It’s a fascinating moment because it’s like children when they first learn something, that joy of learning is, I think we all feel it, right? We all experience it, so our demos are full of that. Whenever we run a demo there’s always people getting excited and clapping their hands, even, because it’s just a very unusual thing to hear.
Debbie Forster MBE:
But it is, again, that finding the right people, because I think that is also what we are looking for in great tech teams, is that flexibility of thought, that ability and willingness to unlearn as much as we are to learn, to let go of certainty, to move in a different direction. Because if our tech team can’t, then we certainly can’t get our customers and we kill our products at the earliest stages.
So this is about learning to decouple things in our own minds and to unlearn and to bring that flexibility to what we do at work, which I think, again, makes a great tech team. And then if you can, then great tech at its earliest stages always feels like magic, doesn’t it?
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Yeah, absolutely.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And so you need that idealist. We need people who are willing to let go, be scared, and then get excited
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
And it’s absolutely that. Absolutely that. I think it’s also the case of really how to design these products, how to design the interaction with the tech that we have on a daily basis everywhere, how to make sure that it’s not scary for too long, because it will be scary. I think inevitably it will always, if there’s something completely new, it’s always a little bit scary. People don’t like change typically, but how to make sure that that process, from the moment you learn about it, you have to interact the first time, to the moment of saying, “Ah, okay, I got it.” That has to be really minimised, this time has to be minimised. And this is really all about the design of your product in terms of both software and hardware. It has to be accessible, it has to be easy, otherwise it just takes too much time to learn.
Debbie Forster MBE:
Agreed. So I do love what you were saying, insofar as that a key part of the design process is not just the breakthrough moment. The magic moment is then designing it so the magic becomes mundane, it becomes functional, and then we teach people how to work with that functionality. I think it’s a super way, and I think too often, we don’t complete that design process in tech. And we have to always think about that, how can we make it almost boring, make it ubiquitous to go through in that respect.
Okay. So Natalia, let’s then take a step back. As somebody who gets to think about tech in your day-to-day, but more broadly, so anything in tech, I’m throwing up in the horizon now, you can look at anyone and anything that’s happening. Is there anything in tech that really frustrates you or worries you at the moment?
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
I think I would have to tie it back to actually the last thing we discussed, which is the ease of use, really. I’m 37 and I find that for me, there are certain things in tech these days that are just not as straightforward to use as they should be. And I always think of my parents, my grandparents, it must be a scary world when you… You need to be tech literate to function. So I think if there’s anything frustrating, it’s probably this, it feels kind of a little bit unjust that we don’t include everyone.
So, I think probably this. In terms of, I have to also tie it back now to, and you probably hear this a lot, but AI, this is a very scary and exciting. It’s as scary as it is exciting. So, thinking about where this can actually take us and how it could actually make all these processes smoother for people to learn how to use tech and so on. So I’m looking into the future of AI and I’m actually personally very, very hopeful that it will enable a lot of just ease of use, I think, from that perspective. So this is definitely something I’m kind thinking about. At the back of my mind, I’m still very scared as well. But yeah, just-
Debbie Forster MBE:
But I think beyond even AI, I like that you’re raising that broader issue. And it’s one that I think we have to remember in tech, is think beyond the enthusiasts, think beyond the early adopters. And in fact, as there’s more and more breakthroughs, as the cutting edge is so far ahead, are we really thinking about, who’s being left behind, who’s being left out?
And tech has the potential to be the great equaliser, the great inclusion tool, but only if we build it in. And there are so many dimensions, you mentioned age, but there’s disability, there’s social mobility. I think for us to not create a dystopia, for us to create a future that isn’t one of those scary sci-fi novels, it is vitally important that we’re always thinking in tech is, who’s getting left behind? Because there’s always a cost if someone is left behind and we will all pay it if we don’t think about it and build it in from the very start. Couldn’t agree more agree. And it’s a mantra I would throw down to everyone.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Yeah. And it’s also, just as you’re speaking about this, I’m having the thought of the tech is usually kind of designed, it’s not very kind of, how to say, equitable, in a sense that it’s not designed differently for different people or different, sometimes for different ages maybe, but actually, for the most part it’s pretty kind of a blanket, this is what it is.
So being able to actually work with something, and I’m kind of bringing it back to Holoplot, being able to work with something that can be so individual. Every person out of your, if you have a conference, as you kind of mentioned, every person could have their own native language translation happening at the same time. There could be an audience area where the level is just simply a little bit higher just to make sure that people with hearing difficulties can hear a bit better. So it’s just these little things which we can do, that they are for us and they should be, I believe, so easy to implement and we shouldn’t have to go to lengths to accommodate everybody.
Debbie Forster MBE:
Okay. And then is there anything on the horizon for tech that really has you excited, has you buzzing with what could be next?
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
I think really, I’ve been right now just super, super into the whole topic of AI. I think for the first time in my life, I read a magazine from literally from front cover to the back cover, and that was the Time magazine about AI. It’s as fascinating as life itself because it’s as broad as life itself. It can be scary and terrifying and it has the potential to really do damage. At the same time, it has all the potential to do all the good things, so I’m super fascinated. At this point, it’s very hard for me to kind of step away from that topic and really talk about anything else. And so that’s the latest one for me in tech.
I think also on a personal kind of level, I’ve been reading a lot about, recently about, now, completely different topic about loneliness, actually. I’ve been thinking about that in context of technology. And I really hope, and this will be definitely something very important for me, that again, this inclusion element, the fact that everyone is seen and everyone is accounted for and no one’s, as you said, no one’s left behind. Yeah, I really believe that this is something super, super important that we should all pay attention to ’cause it’s very easy… I can see a world where we easily leave people behind, where we really don’t intend to, just because the tech took us a specific direction. So yeah, these are probably the kind of key topics for me, just recently. Yeah.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And it’s really interesting, ’cause I’ve similarly been seen some things on research on the 21st century epidemic of loneliness that perhaps COVID did accelerate, but has been growing in that respect. And as you say, tech can cut through that and can connect people or it can increase that sense of isolation. So something really to think about there.
Then I just always close with asking a question from the guest. Is there anything, you’ve already mentioned the Time issue that was focusing on AI. Is there anything else that you’re reading or listening to or watching that you’d recommend to the audience, that has inspired you in some way?
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Actually, yeah, for sure. Apart from the two things I mentioned, I think main focus for me recently, is actually focusing a little bit on local artists and local gatherings and something that’s a little bit more, maybe it’s after returning from Las Vegas, but on just a smaller scale event. Something that’s a bit more intimate, something that gives voice to someone who didn’t have to travel half the way around the world to perform for you. So maybe just for me, for sure, inspiration of just getting out there and finding some small local events, concerts. Obviously, I have in mind musical things, but there’s obviously so many things happening everywhere, and just giving the voice to the people who are already right next to you.
Debbie Forster MBE:
And I love how many people I have on the show that we are tech, but sometimes the most inspiring things is to unplug, to turn off everything and really engage with the hyper-local, with what’s around us to find the real inspiration, et cetera, so fantastic.
Listen, thank you so much, Natalia, for joining me on this episode. I’ve really enjoyed it. And like I say, I never get to talk rock and roll, so thank you for giving me a chance to be able to talk rock and roll.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Thank you. Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you, Debbie, of course, as always. And yeah-
Debbie Forster MBE:
Thank you.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
… rock and roll. And I’m sure you’ll find more people will work on something related to it than we kind of see at face value first, so yeah.
Debbie Forster MBE:
You’re giving the wider team a challenge. I’m going to throw down, where’s my next rock and roll? Super.
Natalia Szczepanczyk:
Love it.
Debbie Forster MBE:
Thank you for listening. If you’re a tech innovator and would like to appear as a guest on the show, email us now at [email protected]. And finally, thank you to the team of experts at Fox Agency who make this podcast happen. I’m Debbie Forster and you’ve been listening to the XTech Podcast.
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