Value-based digital healthcare

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Debbie Forster:
Hello and welcome to the XTech Podcast by Fox Agency. I’m your host, Debbie Forster, MBE. I’m the CEO at the Tech Talent Charter and an advocate and campaigner for diversity, inclusion and innovation in the tech industry. Today I’m delighted to be joined by Ahmed Abdulla, founder and CEO of Digipharm. Ahmed, thank you so much for joining us today.

Ahmed Abdulla:
Thanks for having me.

Debbie Forster:
So Ahmed, for our listeners, we’d love to hear about what you do, but it’s also really useful for us to understand how you got here. Some of us get into tech, we’re born with a laptop in the hand. Other of us have a more squiggly career to get here. How did you make your way into tech?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah, so I think it’s been quite an interesting journey. Initially, I think when I was around 10 or 11 years old, me and my brother built our first computer together, buying all the parts from a computer fair and then putting it all together. And it was something that was really new at the time and something that was exciting. But then obviously as I carried on with my education and secondary school and things like that, the IT and computer industry was, I’d say really immature at that time. So I went into study within the healthcare industry thinking that could be a really great career path. But then as my career advanced, I saw the advancement in technology and I thought it could be a good opportunity to combine the two and really focus on how tech can really help healthcare be better for everyone.

Debbie Forster:
Absolutely. So you weren’t born with that laptop in hand, but I think like a lot of people in our audience would say, it is that realizing that what you play with could also be something that becomes your work. Now, in going into the pharmaceutical and medicine and probably what felt like a safe career. I think I read somewhere that you also would’ve described yourself as a bit of a rebel?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah, I think I’m only somebody who’s really happy with the status quo and how things were being done when there are clear opportunities for improvement or change. And I think I’ve always been like that, always is challenging things, trying to find better way to do things. And often, a lot of established entities or organizations work in very structured or archaic ways, and I’m somebody who tries to try and move beyond that where possible.

Debbie Forster:
Fantastic. So you are that rebel with a cause. And that’s refreshing as too because we do know a lot within the pharmaceutical industry is about this, how do we make more money? Whereas it feels like you said about in the space to fix some problems, rather than just to make some money.

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah. So the background to that is I trained to be a health economist. And really what the main core of that, let’s say, career or vocation, is helping healthcare organizations understand what they can and can’t afford with their limited budgets. Initially working around high-cost therapies like cancer, drugs and things like that, and supporting the NHS understand what they could really pay for their citizens. And that’s something that I thought was really interesting and really exciting, and this was an area of healthcare that I saw was really impactful. So I decided to really focus on that, continue my career in that area, and then move to Russia and Switzerland and help get some of these high cost drugs into different markets around the world.

Debbie Forster:
Lovely. And I love that social undercurrent for what you do. Now, if I were to look at Digipharm on the internet, it says that you’re focusing on value-based healthcare. Now, for somebody who’s not in the field, can you tell me what that means?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah, so I mean, working in that health economic space, we often saw that many healthcare organizations couldn’t even afford to pay for these newer innovative drugs. And it is mainly due to budget restrictions. And some of it was driven by the fact that even when patients did not benefit from these treatments or these treatments failed, that health systems, whether they were paid for by governmental bodies like we have in the UK or insurance companies, that money was essentially going down the drain and it left healthcare organizations in difficulties to continue paying for some of these newer and higher cost therapies.
And around that time in I’d say the late 2017, 2016, there really became a push towards value-based healthcare within the healthcare ecosystem. And that’s essentially paying for healthcare or rewarding healthcare activities that work and provide benefits for the patient. And combining that with what I was doing in my day job, it just sounded like this was definitely the right thing to do, but at the same time, there were no, let’s say, systems or solutions that were dedicated to help healthcare systems employ this new business model. And that’s where Digipharm came about.

Debbie Forster:
And that, it sounds so practical, doesn’t it? And what we want to believe would be helping with healthcare is, what works is what gets paid. That’s a really big problem space. So where did you start setting out your stall as Digipharm? What were you focusing on in that space?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah, we took it back to basics really, just helping these healthcare organizations pay for performance. And looking at some of the requirements to do this, we realized it was a type of business model where it was driven by data rather than volumes, what we’d seen in the past. And when are talking about a, let’s say a payment model where all contracting parties, let’s call them, were incentivized to present the data in a certain way, there was an opportunity for a third party to come and then be that trusted data processor on behalf of all of them.
Just taking the example, for example, a health system, they would, for example, get a discount on the drug or therapy if they say it doesn’t work. And if the manufacturer or pharmaceutical company was responsible for that data processing, they’d want to say things do work. And so we took the approach of taking that a step further from the technology point of view as well. It wasn’t the fact that we’re just a independent third party. The technology stack such as using a blockchain and smart contracting means that once the parameters for these agreements are set up, we as an organization also step away and let the technology do the work.

Debbie Forster:
Okay. So interesting, to choose to go and to use blockchain to do that. Was that your first choice?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah, it was. I did consider different technology stacks, but this blockchain and smart contracting really made sense. In the healthcare and pharma industry, there’s a lot of confidentiality around pricing, especially some of these higher cost therapies or more innovative drugs. And that was something, the additional security and confidentiality and privacy aspects of blockchains was something that was really exciting. But then the automation piece of smart contracting, we hadn’t seen anything like that. And during 2017, when we started, that was when Ethereum started getting a lot of traction with their smart contracting solutions, and that was one of the first systems that we deployed on.

Debbie Forster:
So it was one of the first choices. So in having to move perhaps across different platforms, what did you learn? Is there anything that now you wish you knew then?

Ahmed Abdulla:
That’s a good question.

Debbie Forster:
That was the laugh of pain. That was the laugh of, “Oh, it hurt at the time, but I’ve learned to laugh about it now.”

Ahmed Abdulla:
I think at the time it was the right choice. But in the case of Digipharm, we’ve actually actively migrated from different ecosystems and environments to better and more suitable solutions as we’ve moved along. So we started with Ethereum and then we moved to a enterprise-level blockchain called Corda, which enabled us to add legal pros with these smart contracts, as that was some of the feedback that we got from end users, especially pharmaceutical companies. And then more recently, again, we’ve transferred to something a lot more flexible, and that’s just for the contracting piece. And we also have an adjacent digital currency, which we’re going to be using for patient engagement and user rewards for our Digihealth portals. And with those, again, we’ve also conducted already two migrations. Again, trying to find the best available solution. And I think we’re not shy to do that at all.

Debbie Forster:
And that’s important. I think a lot of time and energy can go to try and find the perfect solution. Where it sounds like for you, success has been knowing when to change your solution. And I’m hearing you’re listening to the customer. What other things tell you it’s time to pack the bags, we’re moving house?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah, so with the customer we focus on their experience and the problems it solves for them and their needs. But from the technological aspect, we very much make those decisions ourselves. And if we feel something is the right move or we feel a certain technology stack is outdated, we’ll move pretty rapidly to be honest. We don’t be left behind just like we’ve seen healthcare systems stagnating in some regions, even developed countries like the UK, you see they’ve some of these systems for 20, 30 years and we see the obvious problems and that’s something that we really want to avoid. We don’t want to be stuck in that same box as them.

Debbie Forster:
And that’s an interesting mindset to adopt. So I like that you’re hearing that combination. It is absolutely listening to the customer because they understand the problems, but then you’re bringing your expertise of solutions. But there’s also a mindset that I think is powerful and it is that packing light, that rather than get yourself so embedded with something that you are then risking that obsolescence, but to be ready to move and to have the systems, the approaches, the mindsets that allows that migration across, is important if you’re looking at any emerging technology at the moment. Because the best technology she says was, “Strong,” inverted commas. The best technology today is tomorrow’s dinosaur. And so building in that way of moving across. And so it’s interesting that you talked also about the patient side, so the supply you’ve been working on. And a lot of people do that, but I like that you are looking at both supply and demand and those aren’t necessarily the same tools or the same solution. So talk to me about what you are doing on the customer side, the patient side.

Ahmed Abdulla:
We have the B2B contracting side, which helps healthcare organizations pay for these things based on how well the way they work. But in terms of actually evaluating how well things work, a lot of input is actually required directly from the patient. And if I just give a simple example of a pain therapy or a migraine drug, only a patient can tell us whether this works or not.
So we’ve developed a patient engagement ecosystem called Digihealth where patients can not only provide feedback about what they are receiving and the quality of service and the experience they’ve had, but also then expanding upon that and building on our credibility with working with some of these large healthcare organizations to empower them and enable them to hold their own medical data. Benefit financially from this data as well, which currently is being done behind their backs, and a lot of the time without them knowing. Being able to access different digital health solutions, things like screening, epigenetic profiling as well, which can tell you how your health is changing over time based on your behavior and exercise and activity. I think that’s something that also excites us. If we’re going to fix healthcare and fix it for good, I think patients really need to be partners in this and not just end users or end customers.

Debbie Forster:
And there’s two bits of what you said that I hear more and more often emerging from the wisest in our space. And that is taking our users on a journey and our view of our users on a journey, that moving them from being passive users into actually being partners in the process. And what I like is then you take that the next dimension. They’re not just a set of individuals, how can we turn this into an ecosystem? I think in the same way that we’ve talked about a lot of companies looking and realizing the goldmine they have in their data, there’s also, within tech, more and more people waking up and realizing what a goldmine they have in their users as an ecosystem, as a resource, as a partner in that piece. Now, in doing that, in going on that journey, is there anything you’ve learned and have learned, again, through that painful things you wish you’d done sooner, better, differently about working with your users that the audience could learn from?

Ahmed Abdulla:
There’s a few things. So in terms of the partnering with communities and growing communities and things like this, I think a lot of the, for example, let’s say new founders or organizations of thinking working in this way. I don’t think they appreciate how driven some of these users can be and how they can really act as ambassadors for your ecosystem and your growth. And that’s something I’d encourage them to really embrace. I think that’s a huge opportunity. And one thing I think I’ve learned, and that’s also been really interesting, is that people are very well-informed these days. Once something interests them, they have so many resources available to them, and if they’re not well-informed, how fast they can be informed again is something that’s really impressive. And I think organizations should try and use this to their advantage. It changes ventures from having one or two voices or three, four voices within a team, to thousands or millions of voices eventually. And I think that can make all the difference.

Debbie Forster:
But it’s a mindset difference, isn’t it? I remember talking to someone once that said, “Look, I wanted to have the user voice. I just didn’t realize it was going to be so loud and sometimes so grumpy.” And it is that really trying to change our mindset of those voices matter and they have opinions and they may have things that we didn’t think about. This is not just customer satisfaction, which is kind of, “Keep them quiet, keep them happy, but quiet.” It’s really listening into those voices because there will be some of those voices who are impatient or angry or have those other ideas. And do we see that as a threat or a nuisance or do we see that as powerful insights?

Ahmed Abdulla:
No, no, I completely agree. We’ve taken the approach of having focus groups with our members directly engaging with them. You’re never going to be able to satisfy all of their requirements, but if you’re able to capture that general need or request from them, I think you can satisfy the vast majority. And I think that’s the best we can do really. Beyond that, I think it’s also useful to give them some sort of skin in the game as well. In terms of our patient ecosystem, we’re going to be sharing 50% of the profits generated on our digital health marketplace with them directly. So I think having these additional incentives, and ours is driven by digital currency and this profit sharing as well, I think that those are things that can really accelerate it from being a following to a really strong community.

Debbie Forster:
Love it. Okay, so I’m sitting in the audience, even if I’m not going into healthcare, I am thinking about, when I’m looking at solutions, am I packing light? Am I ready to move when it makes sense, both for our users and for us? I’m hearing a completely different mindset to how we see our customers and creating that voice and actually going the next step. I don’t think there’s a lot of organizations out there that would say they’re giving their users or their customers skin in the game. So that’s motivating and driving things, which is a completely different thing. Really, really useful. Okay. Well, let’s step back then and let’s look at the horizon. I’d like to hear from my guests to understand when you look at the horizon, what are you seeing? So let’s start on the negative side, of the glass half empty. When you are looking at the horizon, what’s worrying you?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Well, so in terms of what’s worrying me, I think, well, the main thing is obviously I think affordability and all these economic issues. For us though, we’ve turned that into an opportunity. I think that’s essentially what Digipharm was built for, to be able to help healthcare improve even in the hard times. I think that’s something that our system can do that’s relatively unique. While that worries me personally, obviously from a selfish point of view, as a business owner, I think that’s something that is more of an opportunity, but it does, I mean, generally for the wider public, I see a lot of inequalities. Back to that rebel mindset, I don’t agree with a lot of things that people in charge of doing it. So that’s really one of the things I see as a big issue globally.
And then in terms of things that excite me and things that could be massive opportunities, I see advancement. AI is really scary, but again, that’s a massive opportunity again for those who embrace it and really take the time to learn and study it and see how it can help them in their daily life or in their work. And another aspect, I’m really actually excited about the advancement within the digital currency space as well. We see more and more countries and regions adopting these things, and I think that, again, puts our Digihealth ecosystem in good standing.

Debbie Forster:
Fantastic. And I like the way you talked about bringing that rebel insight, that rebel way of thinking into what we do and how we do that. It’s important that we take that wider mindset and bring it into our world and into our work in terms of what we do that. Is there anything at the moment that you would say, Ahmed, that you’re… Is there an event, a podcast, a book, some research? Is there anything that’s inspiring you?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Well, I think there’s a lot of things that inspire me. I wouldn’t say they’re linked to any specific podcasts or events or anything like this. To be honest, I think one of my biggest drivers recently has just been exercising and the energy I’ve been getting out of that. I’ve, what, four, five months ago I started exercising every day and I didn’t do that before. And the drive that that’s given me has been amazing. And if anyone’s listening, I’d recommend everybody to do that because you can read all the books in the world and things like this, but you need to get active, get going. And I think it can change lives.

Debbie Forster:
It helps us in so many ways. But I think that getting away from the screen, getting away from that thinking, going out and that physical activity, there’s so much research coming out lately in terms of how our brains work, that show that’s where the real processing, that’s where the real thinking comes and that change of scenario. And then if you add into it the physical being, it’s sort of a win-win cycle, isn’t it?

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah. I think you need, especially us as, let’s say, tech founders, we need to get that perspective. It’s not about this 15 inch screen that we have in front of us all the time. We also need to understand and embrace that there’s a real world out there and the solutions we develop should go to impacting that side of our lives as well.

Debbie Forster:
And those great “aha” moments rarely happen when we’re sitting, staring at that screen.

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah.

Debbie Forster:
They’re actually when we’re completely away from the screen and [inaudible 00:22:45] together.

Ahmed Abdulla:
Yeah. Exactly. That’s when we-

Debbie Forster:
Useful advice. It’s raining outside for me right now, but you’re inspiring me after this to go for a walk. So listen, Ahmed, I really, really enjoyed talking to you. I appreciate you making the time to come to share with us your thoughts. All the best with Digipharm. I’m really excited about what you’re pioneering here.

Ahmed Abdulla:
No, thanks a lot for the invite, really grateful for the opportunity to talk to you guys and happy to come back in a couple of years hopefully when we’ve changed a lot of, or improved a lot of lives via our solutions.

Debbie Forster:
Fantastic. Okay. So we’d love to receive your comments and thoughts on what you’ve heard and you can share them with us at fox.agency/xtech.
Thank you for listening. If you’re a tech innovator and would like to appear as a guest on the show, email us now xtech@fox.agency. And finally, thank you to the team of experts at Fox Agency who make this podcast happen. I’m Debbie Forster and you’ve been listening to the XTech Podcast.

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